Author Topic: Rotten water  (Read 5858 times)

davholla

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Rotten water
« on: January 31, 2017, 11:31:06 »
Apologies for the long question but IMHO all the facts might be useful.

I have a small garden, the only things in apart from an overgrown lawn and a pond are :-
1) Small family apple tree - not too bad in productivy
2) One columnar apple tree most years ok last year not so good - amazing taste
3) Some gooseberry bushes (some in pots) none very productive
4) Blueberries in pots
5) Two small apple trees in pots most years ok last year not so good - amazing taste
6) A mulberry tree - never fruited in 9 years - in a pot
7) A jostaberry bush - very productive
8) Raspberry bed - not very productive
9) In the fruit garden a white currant bush - very productive
10) 3 Gooseberries bushes

I have some pots which are full of water which had vegetable material and lots of sticks in it and it is rotten. 
Would this be good for the plants?  When should I put it on them?  (I can't store this for ever as I want to plant Gooseberries in them in March).
Or should it go on the compost heap?

BTW due (I think) to :-
1) No lid
2) Too much woody material
The compost heap has not produced any useful compost for years.
You may have guessed that I love Gooseberries particularly since you can't buy the tasty varieties my few berries are 100x times tastier than any you can buy

The water by the way is full of rat tailed maggots - I have photos but some people find them gross, let me know if you want to see them.

Tee Gee

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 11:50:23 »
Crystal ball job this!

My first thoughts are: Get rid of it altogether!

You describe what you can see in it which is fine, it is what is in it that you cannot see that may cause a problem at a later date!

IMHO: At best put it on the compost heap otherwise find a bit of waste land to put it on!

davholla

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 11:53:01 »
Crystal ball job this!

My first thoughts are: Get rid of it altogether!

You describe what you can see in it which is fine, it is what is in it that you cannot see that may cause a problem at a later date!

IMHO: At best put it on the compost heap otherwise find a bit of waste land to put it on!

Really it smells like liquid fertilizer - and it is all I think of organic origin.  I could give it to a spider plant to see what happens - but I don't want to feed them.

lezelle

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 14:06:46 »
Hi Ya, it sounds like most will need getting rid of. I am surprised the pots are full of water. The horrid smell is the compost being to wet and the rat tailed maggots are a member of a bee family the name of which escapes me currently but they are harmless and I usually find them in my liquid manure heap in the bagged up manure used to make it. The mulberry probably wants planting out, the others either re-potting in fresh compost or replacing. Make sure if you reuse the pots there is adequate drainage and the holes are not blocked but it sounds there are non. Most can go on the compost heap and with the fruit try a green test. Scrape a small area of bark away and if it is green underneath you may be able to recover them. The compost could be put on your borders but it does smell horrible so probably best mixing with dry material like news paper torn up in the compost bin. What type compost bin is it? it may be worth investing in a new one so try your local council and see if they have any offers on. Give the pots you empty a good scrub to get rid of any lingering decay and you should be on your way. You can only try and i would not feed the plants with it, compost is the answer. Good luck with what you try and let us know how you get on.

davholla

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 14:08:08 »
Thank you both, I will do that sometime this weekend.

jennym

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2017, 09:03:59 »
This reply isn't about the water, but just a few things you've said.

Mulberry in a pot - they're a lot better in the ground, I tried one in a pot, eventually got rid of it as it was so poor but now I have a bigger garden I put one in about 2 years ago (It was bought pot grown from a good supplier and about 4-5ft high) and it's done really well, now about 12 ft high and had a few fruit last summer - birds got most of them! You can prune to grow them as a bush, you don't need to let them get tall.

I found that my raspberries have done so much better in the new garden with a sandier soil, they don't get waterlogged.

Gooseberry bushes in pots - am trying pots myself for last 4 years, have found they need big containers 18" or more" diameter, proper pruning and lots of feed spring and summer, and watering every day except in winter. crops have been good, and it's convenient for me as the pots are placed on bad ground that I couldn't have used anyway, and I can net them off easier.

Bluberries, have done in pots but got no decent crops, have also grown in the ground at old place (heavy clay) and here (sandy loam) but both times I dug pits (about 2-3ft dia and about 2 ft deep) and filled with a mix of ericaceous compost and well rotted compost with plenty of organic matter to hold the moisture.
I didn't have to water the blueberries much on the clay soil, but I water thoroughly every other day now when the fruit is forming on the bush on the sandier soil. Crops have been good, I'd say about 2-3 kg each bush (now have only 3). Also netting them off is vital, the birds will take the green berries as well as the black.

Hope this helps

davholla

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2017, 09:17:13 »
This reply isn't about the water, but just a few things you've said.

Mulberry in a pot - they're a lot better in the ground, I tried one in a pot, eventually got rid of it as it was so poor but now I have a bigger garden I put one in about 2 years ago (It was bought pot grown from a good supplier and about 4-5ft high) and it's done really well, now about 12 ft high and had a few fruit last summer - birds got most of them! You can prune to grow them as a bush, you don't need to let them get tall.

I found that my raspberries have done so much better in the new garden with a sandier soil, they don't get waterlogged.

Gooseberry bushes in pots - am trying pots myself for last 4 years, have found they need big containers 18" or more" diameter, proper pruning and lots of feed spring and summer, and watering every day except in winter. crops have been good, and it's convenient for me as the pots are placed on bad ground that I couldn't have used anyway, and I can net them off easier.

Bluberries, have done in pots but got no decent crops, have also grown in the ground at old place (heavy clay) and here (sandy loam) but both times I dug pits (about 2-3ft dia and about 2 ft deep) and filled with a mix of ericaceous compost and well rotted compost with plenty of organic matter to hold the moisture.
I didn't have to water the blueberries much on the clay soil, but I water thoroughly every other day now when the fruit is forming on the bush on the sandier soil. Crops have been good, I'd say about 2-3 kg each bush (now have only 3). Also netting them off is vital, the birds will take the green berries as well as the black.

Hope this helps
Thanks for that, sadly the things in pots are there because there is no space for them in the garden :(   - London house prices.  The blueberries use to do well but not anymore, I guess they need repotting or feeding - a case for a separate thread.

Vinlander

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2017, 11:36:26 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..

A pot full of soil, water and dead organic matter is not going to be a problem for any plant - the only issue would be really strong manure slurry which can 'scorch' some plants.

Non-organic matter is a different issue... anything contaminated with lead paint is very bad and should disposed of according to the rules - if you find painted timber from before 1960 you need to dig around it and dispose of everything including the soil within at least 2cm of any visible flakes. The same thing applies to any tannalised timber (chromium/cadmium salts) that has been in the soil for some time. Copper is processed by living things and  is no problem in normal use as the sole preservative or corrosion on brass etc. It only becomes an issue at high concentrations on sites contaminated by mining or other industrial processes.

Plastic is not good, especially when it is flaking. There are questions about its effects on tiny life in the soil. It's always worth removing anything like bags/sheeting before it has a chance to flake - if only because it avoids a niggly job later.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

davholla

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2017, 11:38:26 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..

A pot full of soil, water and dead organic matter is not going to be a problem for any plant - the only issue would be really strong manure slurry which can 'scorch' some plants.

Non-organic matter is a different issue... anything contaminated with lead paint is very bad and should disposed of according to the rules - if you find painted timber from before 1960 you need to dig around it and dispose of everything including the soil within at least 2cm of any visible flakes. The same thing applies to any tannalised timber (chromium/cadmium salts) that has been in the soil for some time. Copper is processed by living things and  is no problem in normal use as the sole preservative or corrosion on brass etc. It only becomes an issue at high concentrations on sites contaminated by mining or other industrial processes.

Plastic is not good, especially when it is flaking. There are questions about its effects on tiny life in the soil. It's always worth removing anything like bags/sheeting before it has a chance to flake - if only because it avoids a niggly job later.

Cheers.

Thanks for that, I am pretty sure this is 100% organic

PondDragon

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 14:08:39 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..
Many hoverfly larvae feed on aphids but rat-tailed maggots aren't one of them - they feed on decaying organic matter in stagnant water where the tail acts as a snorkel for breathing air. The adults of the commonest species (Eristalis tenax) are honey bee mimics in late summer / autumn.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 19:23:14 »
Well, I've never seen them, anywhere at all. One is never too old to learn
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/livestock/rat-tailed_maggot.htm
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PondDragon

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2017, 22:26:35 »
They're pretty common if you look in the right places e.g. small plastic containers that have been left lying about for a long time and have accumulated rainwater with decaying sludge at the bottom. Similar to the sort of places mosquitoes breed.

Vinlander

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2017, 13:28:05 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..
Many hoverfly larvae feed on aphids but rat-tailed maggots aren't one of them - they feed on decaying organic matter in stagnant water where the tail acts as a snorkel for breathing air. The adults of the commonest species (Eristalis tenax) are honey bee mimics in late summer / autumn.

Well, I was aware the larvae don't have a ready supply of underwater aphids to eat, sorry for using 'they' once too often in my post - I have been known to criticise others for this mistake so the biter bit is only natural justice!

However I was entirely mistaken about the adults  - it appears they are vegetarian! - I actually wasn't aware there are non-predator hoverflies - a pity really, and despite being merely (entirely accidental pun) pollinators I can't actually call them 'useless' (even to me).

It's a bit worrying that the larvae can live in the human gut though - so I'm afraid the rat-tailed maggot has now officially lost its free pass to my garden.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

davholla

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 13:37:50 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..
Many hoverfly larvae feed on aphids but rat-tailed maggots aren't one of them - they feed on decaying organic matter in stagnant water where the tail acts as a snorkel for breathing air. The adults of the commonest species (Eristalis tenax) are honey bee mimics in late summer / autumn.

Well, I was aware the larvae don't have a ready supply of underwater aphids to eat, sorry for using 'they' once too often in my post - I have been known to criticise others for this mistake so the biter bit is only natural justice!

However I was entirely mistaken about the adults  - it appears they are vegetarian! - I actually wasn't aware there are non-predator hoverflies - a pity really, and despite being merely (entirely accidental pun) pollinators I can't actually call them 'useless' (even to me).

It's a bit worrying that the larvae can live in the human gut though - so I'm afraid the rat-tailed maggot has now officially lost its free pass to my garden.

Cheers.
I think the number of cases is so small you are more likely to get hit by lighting.  If you look at Wikipedia and then their sources they have been 4 cases in the last 100 years worldwide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverfly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverfly

PondDragon

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2017, 15:19:47 »
Rat-tailed maggots are actually hoverfly larvae and extremely good for your garden - they are voracious hunters of aphids etc..
Many hoverfly larvae feed on aphids but rat-tailed maggots aren't one of them - they feed on decaying organic matter in stagnant water where the tail acts as a snorkel for breathing air. The adults of the commonest species (Eristalis tenax) are honey bee mimics in late summer / autumn.

Well, I was aware the larvae don't have a ready supply of underwater aphids to eat, sorry for using 'they' once too often in my post - I have been known to criticise others for this mistake so the biter bit is only natural justice!

However I was entirely mistaken about the adults  - it appears they are vegetarian! - I actually wasn't aware there are non-predator hoverflies - a pity really, and despite being merely (entirely accidental pun) pollinators I can't actually call them 'useless' (even to me).

It's a bit worrying that the larvae can live in the human gut though - so I'm afraid the rat-tailed maggot has now officially lost its free pass to my garden.

Cheers.
Yes, all adult hoverflies are vegetarian as far as I know. The larvae are quite diverse in feeding habits - apparently about 40% of UK species feed on aphids. Of the rest there are quite a lot of plant-feeding species such as Merodon (bulb fly) which feeds on daffodil bulbs, some that live in bee/wasp nests, and a lot that feed on various kinds of rotting wood and decaying matter.

Vinlander

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2017, 13:16:33 »
It's a bit worrying that the larvae can live in the human gut though - so I'm afraid the rat-tailed maggot has now officially lost its free pass to my garden.
I think the number of cases is so small you are more likely to get hit by lighting.  If you look at Wikipedia and then their sources they have been 4 cases in the last 100 years worldwide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverfly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoverfly

Please excuse me for going all "fractal" on this issue - it's probably my favourite sport...

I'm a great believer in ranking risk properly - there used to be a list of risks compared to death from swallowing a thrown peanut (or rather, from incomplete swallowing) - and it did a brilliant job of showing up the difference between phobia and rational fear. Unfortunately I can't find it anywhere on t'web and my original copy is lost on some absurdly small floppy disk somewhere.

If you remove the culling of surplus golfers from the lightning stats the figures do begin to be useful for normal people, but it still depends on how sensibly you react to threatening weather. There may be a safe technique to catch a moving peanut in your mouth, but for most people it's just a crazy moment. Avoiding all risk is just going to increase your risk of suicide.

However in this particular case I suspect the risk is amazingly low mainly because the flies seek out rotten water, and most people are never in a position where they would even consider drinking bad-smelling water, and even less would drink it if it actually tastes bad. Any sensible person who really needed water that badly would have to be bereft of all textiles to risk it without filtering.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

ancellsfarmer

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2017, 19:07:32 »
Vinlander,
 to recaliberate your risk assessment, its said to be 1:300000 against being struck by lightning,
1:9000000 against being struck twice, and 1:45000000 against winning theJackpot in the National Lottery.
Please calculate the odds against being struck by lightning while collecting that winners cheque.
Freelance cultivator qualified within the University of Life.

Vinlander

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Re: Rotten water
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2017, 13:46:16 »
I really am getting quite imprecise these days!

At risk assessment I'm well down, even in the "dilettante" category I barely qualify for.

My favourite sport is conversational "going fractal" (sometimes called BS) and it's pretty much my only spectator sport since it's the only one where I enjoy others' offerings almost as much as participation. I'm only average at it at best, but I don't normally enjoy watching other people doing stuff where I'd benefit a lot more from doing it myself - not even the (very, very few) sports I was nearly average at...

It does take up a lot of time in the pub, but not as much as watching 22 prima donnas chasing a ball that's the wrong shape anyway.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

 

anything
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