Topic: Crown Prince pumpkin

[John85]

Does anyone knows if it is possible to buy seeds that are not F1 hybrid?

[daveyboi]

Maybe here ?? https://www.sarahraven.com/veg_fruit/seeds/veg_seeds/pumpkin_crown_prince.htm

[PondDragon]

If Crown Prince is an F1 variety, then non-F1 seeds aren't going to be Crown Prince.

[saddad]

I thought it was an F1 ... but I'd still recommend it. 

[galina]

I thought it was an F1 ... but I'd still recommend it. 

Sweet Meat is probably the closest non hybrid. 

[tricia]

Galina, do you know of a UK source for Sweet Meat seeds? I've Googled but could only find them on US websites. Many thanks.

Tricia 

[galina]

Galina, do you know of a UK source for Sweet Meat seeds? I've Googled but could only find them on US websites. Many thanks.

Tricia 

Tricia, in UK afaik only from Amazon from Premier Seeds, who claim that it is the same as Crown Prince.  If I buy squash seeds that are harder to find, I use Bobby seeds from Germany.  Seeds come as fast as UK company and so far happy with them. But beware their mouthwatering catalogue   

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Premier-Seeds-Direct-RL-2ZKF-0NM3-Squash/dp/B00OLP8KIY/ref=sr_1_1?s=outdoors&ie=UTF8&qid=1484807753&sr=1-1&keywords=sweet+meat
http://www.bobby-seeds.com/en/Cucurbits-and-more/Squash-Seeds/Maxima-Seeds-all/Sweet-Meat::109.html

[John85]

I am sure non hybrid Crown Prince existed some years ago as I see it advertised in old catalogues.I am trying to find it for a charity that tries to save "old" cultivars.
May be you can tell me about other charities that have the same aim.

[PondDragon]

I am sure non hybrid Crown Prince existed some years ago as I see it advertised in old catalogues.

Just because something isn't advertised as F1 doesn't mean it isn't a hybrid variety. I found this 1991 paper: Breeding of Cucurbita spp. in New Zealand. Quotes:

Early Dri-crown and Crown Prince are hybrids developed · from cultivar Whangaparoa Crown.

Prior to the early 1980's the cultivar Whangaparoa Crown and related strains were the main types grown. In 1990 they accounted for 10 percent of the New Zealand area under production (F.Onland, pers. comm.). Whangaparoa Crown is a New Zealand selection from the cultivar Crown introduced from Australia

[galina]

Prior to the early 1980's the cultivar Whangaparoa Crown and related strains were the main types grown. In 1990 they accounted for 10 percent of the New Zealand area under production (F.Onland, pers. comm.). Whangaparoa Crown is a New Zealand selection from the cultivar Crown introduced from Australia

Interesting reading PondDragon.  And nothing about the relationship with Sweet Meat which is the most popular op squash of this type in USA.  Fascinating that it has been used to improve buttercup's storing abilities in the newer cup squashes.  I had  buttercups store until May easily.  But Whangaparoa's other name is New Zealand Storage pumpkin. 

http://www.bobby-seeds.com/en/Cucurbits-and-more/Squash-Seeds/Maxima-Seeds-all/Whangaparoa-Crown::1805.html

This is Whangaparoa Crown and yes, very similar too.  HSL once offered a squash called 'Whanga' years ago, also possibly the same.  There is also Jarrahdale squash another fairly similar op squash and available in UK.

http://moreveg.co.uk/epages/bd0b9b93-06b9-4b49-9efb-f179fdacfbdd.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/bd0b9b93-06b9-4b49-9efb-f179fdacfbdd/Products/PKNJA

[daveyboi]

There should be a non F1 Crown Prince as Thompson and Morgan actually state in their Crown Prince seed description
"An F1 breeding improvement of Crown Prince. Very popular for its attractive, flattened fruits with a steely-blue skin, each weighing up to 4kg (8.5lb). Squash 'Crown Prince' is renowned for its colourful rich orange flesh with a sweet and nutty flavour. This RHS AGM stores particularly well, lasting up to 3 months if kept in frost free conditions. Height: 35cm (14"). Spread: 200cm (79")."

[galina]

I am trying to find it for a charity that tries to save "old" cultivars.
May be you can tell me about other charities that have the same aim.

What's your charity John?

[Plot 18]

The RHS doesn't list Crown Prince as an F1 (neither was it listed as F1 in the trials when it received its AGM)
https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/grow-your-own/vegetables/squash

and neither does Horticulture week
http://www.hortweek.com/squash/ornamentals/article/1150847


I think it is also worth remembering that it is not in the seed company's interest to encourage us to save seeds. On another forum there was a thread about a well-known seed co that was advertising an OP tomato variety as an F1, when that was pointed out to them they said they would change their on-line listing, but they never did!

[PondDragon]

There should be a non F1 Crown Prince as Thompson and Morgan actually state in their Crown Prince seed description
"An F1 breeding improvement of Crown Prince...

The RHS doesn't list Crown Prince as an F1 (neither was it listed as F1 in the trials when it received its AGM)

I think you're just going on Chinese whispers here. The 'F1' designation can easily be missed off descriptions and then copied by subsequent sources. If you think about it the T&M quote doesn't actually make any sense as written - any breeder going to the trouble of developing an improved F1 variety is 100% going to give it a new variety name so he can market it and profit from his breeding work.

I looked on the Tozer Seeds website (source of seed for the RHS trial that resulted in AGM for Crown Prince) - it's listed currently as Crown Prince F1 but not available to buy. If you want a similar open pollinated variety I think you'd have to go back to one of the older varieties mentioned in the 1991 New Zealand paper above, although I don't know if any of them are available over here.

[galina]

PondDragon,  It is the other way round.  Hybrid seeds must be marked by F1, but it happens that seed sellers mark open pollinated seeds as hybrids unnecessarily in order to demand a higher price, as usually hybrid seed is more expensive and the packets are smaller. 

In the case of Crown Prince they may have marked it as F1 if there is any doubt, just in case.  And if they had produced a hybrid of their own that is different from open pollinated Crown Prince, then they would not be allowed to call it by the same name.  Either they are all hybrids, or none of them are. 

As Crown Prince is one of the most popular squashes in the UK, if they call it a hybrid, then nobody will save seeds from it, but buy new every year.  That's canny!

I have a sneaking suspicion that it might well be an open pollinated squash after all,  but somebody would need to isolate/handpollinate, save pure seeds and also do a comprehensive comparison between the F1 and the saved seed plants. 

For Whangaparoa and Jarrahdale availability in UK see earlier post.

 

[PondDragon]

galina,
I'm sorry but I have no time for this sort of conspiracy theory. Refer again to the paper I linked to - from 1991 this is much older than any of the more recent seed company & RHS websites mentioned and clearly describes Crown Prince as a hybrid variety, with details on its origin.

[galina]

Does anyone knows if it is possible to buy seeds that are not F1 hybrid?

Just spotted this one, John.  As they have all their F1s labelled as such, it looks like this is open pollinated.

http://www.plantsofdistinction.co.uk/courgette-and-squash/squash-and-pumpkin/squash-crown-prince

[PondDragon]

it looks like this is open pollinated.

In which case it's not Crown Prince.

[johhnyco15]

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Squash, 'Crown Prince' these appear to be open pollenated

[John85]

Thank you Galina.Worth a try.
And I 'll call it " Very close to Crown Prince" so everyone 'll be happy!