Topic: Immigration

[Vony]

If you’ve ever wondered about just what immigration does in the way of “helping” people from poor countries then watch this clip and have your eyes opened.

YES IT’S A USA CLIP BUT WHAT THIS SEEMS TO SHOW IS HOW FAR OFF THE MARK WE ARE.

This is probably the most powerful and calmly put argument that I have ever seen. It is a MUST watch. (Runs 6 min)

https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=LPjzfGChGlE&feature=player_embedded

[Obelixx]

There is a huge difference between taking economic migrants and those who are fleeing persecution and torture.  The former need to be helped to stay in their countries and improve things there.  The latter need to be helped to survive, heal and, maybe one day, return to their country of origin and build new lives for themselves and their fellow countrymen and women.

[Tee Gee]

Could that be where Cameron got his idea?

Edit; BTW I agree with both Cameron and that lecturer!

[sparrow]

Well said Obbelix, couldn't agree with you more. Am often stunned at how people lose their humanity when faced with the actuality of refugees.

[squeezyjohn]

He doesn't even begin to address the fact that the world only has finite resources and therefore finite wealth and there's no way any western government, especially not the USA, is going to give up any of it's massively disproportionate share!!  Therefore the poor majority will remain so.

Meanwhile, here in the UK, with dwindling birth rates and an ageing population who live longer and will need the state pension and healthcare, it's hard to see a fair solution to some of our problems without immigration!

[Digeroo]

It is a very complicated situation.  While there are people in desperate need there are others making huge profits.  Others have vowed to take over Europe and turn it into a Muslim caliphate.  Some of them are coming not for help but to ultimately throw you out of your home.  The problem is that they are all mixed up with the genuinely desperate.   
There are 2 million refugees in Turkey.  Turkey is struggling to cope with them. 
More in Lebanon (half a million) and Jordan (2 and a half million)

Any large group of people who do only want to abide by their rules become a problem.   Many Muslims do not believe in democracy.   

The situation with Germany is confusing me, one moment they say they will welcome people and a couple of days later they also have closed there borders and stopped trains.

I am off to Turkey next week.  I felt somewhat put off by the thought of living well at a nice hotel while others were dieing in the waters around me.  But in the end feel that going is the best way of helping Turkey to support the 2 million it is currently feeding.   I would welcome your thoughts.

[Obelixx]

Go.  Have a great time.   Support the Turkish economy.

We are lucky to come from a stable democracy that gives us safety and security and opportunities but we mustn't forget that our countries have also experienced invasion, civil war, religious and political persecution and have learned the lessons (some anyway) and evolved.

The middle east, Asia and Africa are several centuries behind us tho all too often their leaders have had an expensive European education which seems to have failed to teach them about history and economics and what makes for peaceful, prosperous societies.

[ancellsfarmer]

It is unfortunate that such a high percentage of the "migrants" appear to be of such age that they could properly be thought to be escaping their duty to stand and fight their corner, to halt and turn back their aggressors, to protect their elders and families . How can we expect them to behave if ever this country faces an onslaught, as did our grandparents. Could we expect them to enlist or accept conscription, to stand and fight our corner, to halt and turn back our aggressors, to protect our elderly and families?
In my view, the refugee does not need to travel 2000 miles, only the distance to get ordered, armed and and regimented.

[Silverleaf]

I know if I was living in a war zone I'd want to get my family out of there, not stay and get killed fighting. That wouldn't help my family at all.

[Poppy Mole]

Just remembering the Battle of Britain this week makes me wonder what would have happened if all the British had up sticks & fled in 1941 when things got very tough.

[sparrow]

That's an awful lot of assumption you have there ancellsfarmer.

As to how refugees feel about a country that gives them sanctuary, I have never met a refugee who wasn't incredibly grateful for that protection or who didn't want to contribute as much as possible to the community that has welcomed them in. As for serving in the military, some would, wouldn't/couldn't, same as here. Though it takes quite a few years before they would be eligible.

[BarriedaleNick]

When you are facing an enemy that uses chemical weapons and has an enormous advantage in terms of firepower then I really don't know how you are supposed to fight or indeed what with.
It is all very well sitting in judgment from our safe European homes but when you are fighting your own state run forces and trying to fight against ISIS then it probably wont end well.  You and your family are probably going to die just like the other 150,000 who already have.

This is what they are running from - I don't blame them.

[squeezyjohn]

I couldn't agree more Nick ... the simplistic answer that they should all just sort it out for themselves shows a woeful lack of human empathy. 

I'm sure any one of us would do whatever it took to try and keep our families safe if we found ourself in the same boat - normally that doesn't include trying to fight a heavily armed dictator.

[ACE]

Some are running for their lives, some want better lives, I ain't worried, each to his own. I'll welcome anybody in out of the rain, but if they then sit down on my sofa, fart and change the tv channel, I may not be so welcoming.

[Ellen K]

WRT military service for the UK, the Muslim position is that they would not fight in any conflict against other Muslims.

So not "same as here" as Sparrow says, e.g. not the same as the position from most of the Christian churches.

[pumkinlover]

There is a huge difference in the type of conflict in WW2, where there was a clear demarcation of opposing sides. There was also conscription then.
In Syria the public are caught between random opposing fighters and have no chance to protect themselves or fight back.

[Ellen K]

There is a huge difference in the type of conflict in WW2, where there was a clear demarcation of opposing sides.

From a historical perspective. it's far too early to make that statement.  And there are lots of parallels being drawn between ISIS and the Nazi movement.

[ancellsfarmer]

I have read your various responses and comments regarding my post regarding the OPs topic. My view is that the emigrating throng, while clearly justified in seeking respite and shelter from the civil war are the very disperate sections of the very tribal communities that plurally are called Syria. They are the population of the entire area.If you care to read this concise summary* as background, you will doubtless agree that they , if present in large numbers, will represent a potential time bomb of conflict ,not just with the indigenous populations of Central & Western Europe, who in majority are Christian, either actively or passively ,but also within themselves. My fear is that ,given the purported Muslim agenda of creating Eurabia, that sufficient militant actions could draw forth a calamity within our generally peaceful society making the occasional "terrorism" insignicant by comparison.
I am strongly of the view that we should give greater economic assistance to Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey to house refugees, rebuff uninvited speculative economic migrants from all non Commonwealth nations countries, but make active  our charitable institutions to nurture sustainable development within their own countries, encourage and assist in the promotion of self governing democracy and equality.
*http://www.e-ir.info/2014/12/31/the-islamic-state-and-the-arab-tribes-in-eastern-syria/

[sparrow]

WRT military service for the UK, the Muslim position is that they would not fight in any conflict against other Muslims.

So not "same as here" as Sparrow says, e.g. not the same as the position from most of the Christian churches.

Since you make a religious point: a) Not all refugees are Muslim, many are of other faiths, including a high proportion of Christians. b) There are Muslims currently serving in the British military so that's not an absolute. c) Not all British-born Christians (a decreasing number as the church diminishes) would serve.