Topic: Paradise or Hell

[Tanker 7]

Hi
I  live in Wakefield West Yorkshire over the last few years I have noticed a growing number of people turning to private sites due to the long waiting list on council sites so are there any advantages or disadvantages between council /private sites.
I can only draw on my own experience  from the private site where my wife and  I garden a double plot.
I note my local council have there own allotment web site packed with information on allotment growing this web site  has a comprehensive list of rules / regulations and complaints procedures for down load which amongst other things states “ in the event of a dispute/complaint not being resolved you have the right of appeal if you are still not satisfied with the decision you can take your case to the local Ombudsman. “
In contrast my private site does not give you  a copy of there rules/regulations they have no complaints procedure in place we are not allowed to have a contact number or address of the secretary or committee members we are simply shown the secretary plot  and told to catch him when he calls to feed his hens.
Obviously this is difficult for those who are working, in the event of making a complaint the committees decision is final you have no right of appeal you cannot approach the local ombudsman as the allotment association is not a public body.
My wife and I have been tending are plot for two years and would advise anyone considering joining a private Allotment to gather as much information about the site before committing.
Obviously I have attempted not to be controversial in writing this post however if you require a more detailed account you can visit my Blog at dalefield allotments.com or by following this link  http://www.dalefieldallotments.com/index.html
Good look with your gardens.

[Digeroo]

I am on a private site.  No committee run by local farmer, who is a very benevolent dictator. 

We live with the constant fear of someone building a bypass right through the middle,   But this is not getting nearer at the moment.  However we have the longest runway in Europe more or less mothballed so it might suddenly get a new use in which case the bypass will suddenly become a reality.  It seems odd to consider another runway at Heathrow or Gatwick when there is a perfect good one already and waiting.

This is the beginning of our seventh year.   Seems to be working well.

Quite a few people are giving up.  I personally think this is due to a lack of fertilizer.  The plots were well fertilised by pigs when we arrived, so it was a case of light the blue touch paper and stand well clear.  Everything grew like crazy especially as there were no slugs.  Gradually the slugs have moved in and the nutrients gone. Some of the plots are like deserts. 

Personally I think private allotments is the way to go.  There have been no public allotments here for more than 30 years.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Surely the best way to go would be a change in the law so a public good like allotment sites went a lot higher on the agenda. Its not as if there isnt money there, its just being squandered in tax evasion etc.

[kGarden]

I don't know the answer, but I lean towards privatisation. I don't see any point in Councils running them, they see it as a nuisance (time input vs. rent money raised) and continuously look at the land based on its value for housing (which is a one-time windfall sale only of course), which just creates huge tension with tenants, petitions having to be created frequently to try to get MP's / parliament to step in and give the councillors a good kicking ... and so on.  Unless law is changed to make allotments sacrosanct (I have no objection to that, but I can't see it being easy to get that legislation on the statute book) the frustration for tenants and cost to taxpayer seems a cost too high to me.

Modest rent for an allotment plot is very generous compared to what a farmer would expect to make from growing a regular crop like Wheat, and none of the "input" costs like fertiliser, seed, diesel.  Farmer might even be able to get kick-back that the land is taken out of cropping (and usage changed to "amenity" or somesuch). Farmer has initial cost of providing water, a "club house" perhaps, and fencing. Hence I think that is the better option.  Useless for an inner-city allotment of course, as no wheat growing farm land there!

I might be well-wide of the mark though?!!

[bluecar]

Hello all.

I don't think it's down to whether it is a private site or a council site. Over the years many problems have risen about both - some of us will remember 'unwashed's fight against his council.

A good site is a well managed site whether that be private, council or self-managed.

Many councils are having to give up their management of sites due to the high costs to the council and more and more sites are becoming self-managed. This has the advantage of keeping the cost down to the plot holders. However a number of self-management committees, as we have seen reported here, often become a bit dictatorial in that if you upset them (or a few of them) then you can become victimised to the point of being evicted.

I believe the vast majority of sites are run with the plot holders' interest being the primary concern.

A good point raised by tanker 7 is to ensure that you have obtained the rules (and where applicable the constitution available). Also I would encourage people to attend the site's AGM.

Fortunately we do not seem too much negative aspects of site management.

Bluecar

[Digeroo]

As far as I am aware allotments unfortunately do not qualify as land taken out as non productive.  Personally I think they should be able to get grants for this activity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/397037/CAPLF004_FINAL_WEB_2015.pdf

[Tanker 7]

Hi bluecar thanks for your comments 

I think the problem was we did not know what to expect From a private site

As I warned in my post  you have no rights what so ever on a private site

Edited to remove text. Please keep your posts general.

[goodlife]

As I warned in my post  you have no rights what so ever on a private site

Actually you do. Same basic rules and rights apply to private plots as those on council owns. I know this because I'm involved running one. Allotments and gardens act is something you might want to have a look...that is basics for us all.
It is different matter if the law is followed or the plot owners of those who run it is actually aware such a laws actually exist. I know most of our committee or members do not know about it and for yeeeeeears the site is run with our own few rules..which has actually works mostly fine...but it can have its problems too. Sadly, year by year we've had to start adding new rules to 'what not to do' and start to follow more carefully that these are followed too, some people don't seem to be happy to work with 'freedom' but need to be told and reminded what is not allowed 
I would say any allotment site is only as good as its members...but there is always few that fail to understand they are supposed to be for leisure and some that always want to spoil it for others. What is a paradise without its snake(s)?
Though I do admit that I tend to hear most horrid examples of 'not so happy gardeners' from council run sights!? Maybe it is because 'too many cooks spoil the broth'? Maybe you need to be gardener/grower to run the site to really understand what is involved?
Maybe council run sites have too many rules for their own good?

I'm glad that you've found private site more to your liking

[Tanker 7]

Private sites have no protection in law, 

[goodlife]

Private sites have no protection in law, 

Hmm.... I'm not quite sure what you mean with that...but I would say they do as private sites are under same allotment laws as council owns. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/14/31 Even if private landlord should need the land for other uses...they still have to issue required notice to members and (I assume) for planning too for change of use of the land...
If you have any particular issues you can join to http://www.nsalg.org.uk/ or http://www.theallotmentsandgardenscounciluk.org.uk/ which will give legal help for their members.

[bluecar]

Whilst not an expert, I do agree with Goodlife. The 1950 act amended/supported the rights of the allotment tenant, but both the original 1922 act and the 1950 act apply to lands let for allotments whether the landlord is a private individual/body or a local authority. There is also pages of law which protects both sides of a landlord/tenancy agreement.

The bottom line is that as a tenant you have legal rights. As Goodlife says, if you are a member of NSALG they may be able to advise you but may not take on a retrospective situation. You could, if you feel you have a case, make use of the small claims court (or what ever it is called now). You could also seek your own legal advice as to whether your legal rights have been violated.

Regards

Bluecar

[johhnyco15]

our site in clacton is a self run self owned site which has been in existence for 96 years we have a committee elected by the plot holders a site manager elected by the committee each new member gets a rule book and a probation period of 6 months after a year as long as they have been good tenants they are offered a share this has no value and surrendered on leaving the association  we have committee walk around 1st sunday in the month when any plot holder can chat about concerns they have if any and plots that need attention a quiet word is given I've been a plot holder on this site for 8 years and very very rarely are there any complaint's it is a very happy site every body chats and says hello and we all chip in if any work needs to be done every site needs rules that must be stuck too but applied in a common sense way

[pumkinlover]

Great to hear about a well run and happy site. Looks excellent 

[johhnyco15]

thanks pumpkin lover guess its paradise for us and at 20 pound for a 10 rod plot its a cheap piece of paradise at that so my 2 plots cost me just 40 pound a year not even a pound a week that's value that's the beauty of owning your own site  you can keep it cheap all work is done on a voluntary basis

[Golach]

Interesting thread.  I had a look at the website of a private allotment the other day.  Saw a sign for it on the way to work.  You can rent an allotment for a year then buy it if you want (it does state that buying it would be very expensive).  What did surprise me was that (as far as I can gather) even if you did buy it, you can't sell surplus produce.  Surely, if you own the plot of land you would be entitled to sell (for profit) any surplus?

[goodlife]

Interesting thread.  I had a look at the website of a private allotment the other day.  Saw a sign for it on the way to work.  You can rent an allotment for a year then buy it if you want (it does state that buying it would be very expensive).  What did surprise me was that (as far as I can gather) even if you did buy it, you can't sell surplus produce.  Surely, if you own the plot of land you would be entitled to sell (for profit) any surplus?

It could mean no, for selling your produce straight from the plot as there could be some sort of condition with letting the land for allotment use..or in deeds. Maybe it is 'legal' reason...these days you have to have all sort of licenses, certificates, registrations, proof of 'this and that' etc etc. for anything and everything you do.. even selling humble jar of honey or homemade jam is not quite so straight forward thing anymore..

Edit to add.... just did little googling..and here is your answer...http://www.organiclea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/sellingallotmentproduce.pdf

[Golach]

Thanks Goodlife.  Haven't read all the article but what I have read so far, selling surpus seems to be a grey area.  The way I interpret what I've read is that if you grow extra specifically for profit, then it's a no-no.  If you have a few extra, i.e. I can only use 10 cabbages but have twelve,  could, in theory sell the extra two to my neighbours.  In practice, I'd give them away.

I only have a half plot which is adequate for my needs so doubt I would have that much surplus anyway.  I know the terms and conditions on our lease (council owned allotments) states clearly that you are not allowed to sell produce grown on the allotment for profit.  I know of at least one tenant who took on 4 plots and made no secret that they intended to sell the produce.  I haven't seen them there for a long time and the allotments are now getting quite overgrown.  Another had hens and would sell the eggs to other plotholders.  Also now gone.

In the allotment shop, in the autumn when there is a glut of apples, they are usually put in a box with a sign for people to help themselves and just leave a donation.

This works fine as we all know what we can and can't do, which we accept when we sign the lease.  If people choose to break that agreement and get kicked off the allotments then they knew the risks beforehand.

Of course, there's also the aspect of income tax.   Can't have people making a few bob on the side without the taxman getting his hands on it!

[goodlife]

Oh yes..it is 'sin' if we should earn few extra pennies and not share it with tax man...   
I used to sell my spare honey, but because of  the 'hassle' that is involved with 'registration of premises' etc, rules, rules and more rules....I don't bother no more...I just have couple of hives, get enough for us and to give few jars as presents and do some bartering in exchange for something else. Any spare veg is not worth of trouble of selling them neither. I give mine away for those that have helped us out in some other ways, kind of thank you.
So many times you hear 'you should sell those'...but when you ask, 'how much would you pay for them'..they start comparing to supermarket prices and their veg being clean and packed tidily. They never ask...have you used chemical or compare how fresh the veg is from allotment...nor they have any idea how much work is involved to grow those crops. I ain't gonna do all that hard work and then being insulted by getting paid pennies for the produce...
 

[Golach]

.I just have couple of hive:

I've thought about learning beekeeping.  My back garden is large enough for a couple of hives at the bottom.  Always have a jar of honey in the cupboard.  Apart from it's culinary uses it's the best thing I know of to get rid of a sore throat - couple of teaspoons honey and sore throat is gone in a couple of hours.