Topic: Electric propagator

[goodlife]

Goodlife, having bought my propagator I am now looking to make a grow box.  You said you had your lamp bulbs in clamp on holders.  Is this so you can move the light up or down?  John says he already has some lamp holders but they screw into wood.  Do you think they will be all right assuming we buy the grow bulbs with end fittings that match? 

Yes, I did get clip light holders because it is very easy way to adjust the lights...but there is no reason why you could not use fixed ones ..you could use small piece of wood for the fitting and clamping it for another piece that is acting as support.. for chance of adjusting the height? Or maybe John is handy making something better? I tend to always go for 'low effort' option.
 If you look at 'professional/commercial' grow light units/systems...they are often hanging from chain(s) for the adjustment....opportunity for adjustment being very important! As the plants grow taller..you have to be able to maintain right distance for maximum effect from the light but without scorching the plants.
Because the bulbs are so large...most practical way of assembling them is keeping them horizontal or you will need quite amount of spare room and then you will start 'wasting' the light to surrounding space...I keep about 8-10" gap between bulb and the plants (..or so). You will either need using the bulb in reflective space and/or using light reflector(shade) above the bulb to direct most of the light to the plants. My home made foil and cardboard shade did work just fine, though for sake of safety you will need few inches distance from bulb to the cardboard.
All my different 'system versions have been working for me just fine and I've used what ever 'stuff' I have already available or easy to get hold of...and I don't want to make huge effort building anything too fancy. There is all manner of DIY settings that can be done to achieve same/better results...it just down your/John's efforts and skill.....GO FOR IT!
If you are not sure...keep dropping questions....I'm sure we can come up with answers to work things out.

OH...something I've meant to mention of my 'cabinet'...I didn't make my door too flush for ventilation. Even the bulbs don't produce that much heat...but it is still good to have plenty of 'fresh' air coming in. Commercially made units all have either open sides or adjustable vents. I decided to make the door slightly too 'short'...there is couple of inches gap at the bottom and neither the door shut that properly, so it will allow some air movement but only a little light is escaping to the room.

[Paulines7]

Thank you so much Goodlife, you have been very helpful and I very much appreciate it.   

With the information you have given, I am sure John will fix up something suitable for me.  He has already been out to the shed to find trays to start my plants in as I have not been very well, having had a tummy upset on Sunday evening.   I spent most of yesterday in bed and felt much better when I got up.  Hopefully, I now have nipped it in the bud. 

[ed dibbles]

An update about an unexpected benefit of using grow lights for early sowings is that I have so far had zero damping off of seedlings.

The propagator is already full of germinating seeds, both veg and ornamental plants, but once they begin showing they are under the lights 14 hours per day so much so there are two panel lights suspended over so many pots of seedlings all huddled together.

Now some are getting past the damping off "danger period" (i.e. getting drawn and weak due to lack of light). I will soon begin to move them onto window ledges or the hardier candidates out into the frost free greenhouse now the days are getting noticeably longer.

Grow lights are a real boon helping to pay for themselves already.

[kGarden]

I grow quite a lot under lights, but there is very little that I start off early.  One issue is that it becomes a problem finding lighted space for plants as they get larger, the other is that they come ready for planting out long before the outside is ready for them - partly that's my heavy clay soil, which I cannot get on early in the Spring - baring a winter drought, even if it didn't rain for the rest of this winter it would still be too wet to work come Spring!!

I find lights particularly useful for small seed seedlings - like Petunias, Lobelias and Coleus - which take ages to get going - and bringing forwards seedlings of ornamental plants that might not flower in the first season - such as Cannas.

[goodlife]

I don't do that many sort veg under lights neither...mainly chillies, peppers and toms and maybe odd other thing.
At the moment my over wintering fuchias have come to early growth..its been relatively warm where they are. I'm going to take few some cuttings from them.
First lot of chillies have just germinated and they've been moved from propagator to my new light cabinet 
I've got soil thermometer there and soil temp is 20'C (with lights on) ..which is just perfect for good growth
Now I just have to wait if the one light bulb per shelf is enough as there is no extra reflector above them for all surfaces being reflective...it should be fine, there is not that much difference to older versions, but one doesn't never truly know until it is all tested and trialled in action.
I might get some few early herbs going to...little cut crops, not for longer term growing. I've seem to accumulate so many seeds so it is  good to put them in use when there is not that many fresh things going otherwise....seedlings are small too so plenty of  space to make use of all the 'spare' light.
I'm almost tempted to pop few micro tom seed to germinate too...just for fun..

Ed dibbles....good to hear your growing is going well. I've noticed lack of damping off too...must be because the lights will dry humidity levels. Though once the plants get bigger and competition for the space get going...that's when I get more careful with watering and avoid 'splashing' around..it is like asking for trouble.

[Paulines7]

I have my new propagator switched on and have chillies and peppers sown in small modules.  I was expecting them to germinate a lot quicker than they would without heat, but they have been in the propagator for almost a week now and show no signs of life. 

I normally start my seeds off on damp kitchen roll, placed in plastic bags and then put in the airing cupboard.  They normally then germinate within a few days. 

I haven't started my tomatoes or aubergines yet so will try the airing cupboard trick with those as I haven't any room for them in the propagator.  Once the seeds have germinated, I can put them in an unheated tray with a glass lid.

My grow lights and holders have arrived but I haven't made a light cabinet yet.  A job for the next few days I think.  I have three of those 4 tier mini greenhouses but don't know what sort of condition they are in.  They could be a bit rusty and I don't want to ruin the floor by bringing one into my utility room.

[goodlife]

Chillies and peppers rarely germinate quicker than a week for me..but I always do them in compost so they will take that bit longer to push through. Germination time for those 2 can take up to 2 weeks though.
If you haven't used propagator before, it might take a bit to adjust your methods for best germination....just hold on...early days yet, just be careful with watering...not too wet/dry and it will be just fine.

[small]

Peppers are always the slowest thing for me (using a Very Old heated propagator, no fancy controls or anything), in fact most years I panic and sow a second batch, so ending up with far too many! Even parsley comes up quicker. I'd try some toms just to check, I reckon on about 4 days for them.....

[goodlife]

Peppers are always the slowest thing for me (using a Very Old heated propagator, no fancy controls or anything), in fact most years I panic and sow a second batch, so ending up with far too many! Even parsley comes up quicker. I'd try some toms just to check, I reckon on about 4 days for them.....

Lol... somebody is just sitting on front computer writing new labels for new batch of chillies to be sown again. Its been only just over week when last lot was sown and I have 2 varieties that haven't shown any signs of germinations yet...others are already 'up and running'. I'm impatient too...

[Paulines7]

Some of my chillies have germinated now.   

John brought part of the mini greenhouse indoors and we have put it on the working surface in the utility room.  We hope to attach some cardboard lined with tinfoil all around it.  Four large trays, 52cm x 52cm fit snugly inside, two on each tier.  Do you think each 45W Blue 6400k Red 2700k CFL grow lamp bulb will give enough light for an area 1.04m x 52cm or should I just make one shelf into a grow box and have both bulbs in it?

One further question please.  Should the perspex lids that cover my trays be taken off when the plants are put in the light box?  The reason I ask this is that there will not be a lot of room between the tops of the lids and the shelf above and the grow lamps may end up almost touching the perspect.  I imagine too that if the lids are kept on, it could get too hot for the seedlings. 

Goodlife, have you any plants in your grow box yet?  If so, how is it performing?  Any more photos please? 

[kGarden]

The clear plastic lids will absorb some light, so I would take them off. The soil will dry out more quickly though, so something to be alert for.

Apparently flat white card reflected better than kitchen foil (which can also cause hotspots).  Might not be suitable for a reflector above, i.e. reflecting downwards, as heat will rise - dunno if there is enough heat (from a CFL Lamp) to actually warm the reflector though?

CFL type lamps needs to be as close as possible to the plants (without burning them), typically that will be an inch or two.

[goodlife]

 

Some of my chillies have germinated now.   

John brought part of the mini greenhouse indoors and we have put it on the working surface in the utility room.  We hope to attach some cardboard lined with tinfoil all around it.  Four large trays, 52cm x 52cm fit snugly inside, two on each tier.  Do you think each 45W Blue 6400k Red 2700k CFL grow lamp bulb will give enough light for an area 1.04m x 52cm or should I just make one shelf into a grow box and have both bulbs in it?

One further question please.  Should the perspex lids that cover my trays be taken off when the plants are put in the light box?  The reason I ask this is that there will not be a lot of room between the tops of the lids and the shelf above and the grow lamps may end up almost touching the perspect.  I imagine too that if the lids are kept on, it could get too hot for the seedlings. 

Goodlife, have you any plants in your grow box yet?  If so, how is it performing?  Any more photos please?
...for germination 

One bulb should be enough for that area coverage...though you won't need red bulb at this stage as that colour spectrum is for flowering/fruiting stage. The blue spectrum is for green growth.

Take the lids off..they will just cut the light levels down and temperature and moisture levels under the lids could become bit too much to bare ...and the 'fresh air is good for the seedlings.

I have only few little bits and bobs under lights..so far....and I just took a photo to show the progress (just for you!)...but there is more 'cooking' in propagator

[Paulines7]

Goodlife, thank you for your replies. 

I have just realised that the two bulbs I bought include one blue and one red.  I didn't notice that they were different and thought they were both blue when I sent off for them.  I have decided it will be too expensive to send the red one back so I will keep it in case I need it.  Who knows, it may even get my orchid flowering again!  I will now order another blue one.

Thank you for submitting a photo of your plants in their growbox.  What are those things in the foreground?  At first I thought they looked like potatoes but now think they are more like pears.  They aren't avocado stones are they?

I am very confused because your post on 5th January says "I keep about 8-10" gap between bulb and the plants (..or so)."   In a post today you said "CFL type lamps needs to be as close as possible to the plants (without burning them), typically that will be an inch or two." 

I am pleased I won't need the lids on my trays as they do take up a lot of room.  I will try to find some white cardboard to surround my growbox or failing that, I will apply some emulsion paint to ordinary cardboard.  I am now wondering if white polystyrene vegetable boxes could be used instead of cardboard as I have some spare.  I pick them up when Wilton market is on.  It may be a case of experimenting. 

Thanks again for your help Goodlife.  This really is all new to me but at the end of the day I am hoping that my plants will be better developed and that my chillies actually fruit this year. 

[goodlife]

I am very confused because your post on 5th January says "I keep about 8-10" gap between bulb and the plants (..or so)."   In a post today you said "CFL type lamps needs to be as close as possible to the plants (without burning them), typically that will be an inch or two." 

It was kGarden who quoted the last bit of advise about CFL type lamps. At the moment my lamp is 6" off from the top of the little pots, 5" clearing from the seedlings...it is slightly closer that I would normally do, it is because there is still some seeds in compost that are not germinated yet and some that are slow to fully emerge, so I'm trying to keep the bulb as close as possible for maximum 'heat'. I have to say that I'm not totally comfortable keeping it so close otherwise. But another day or two and all seedlings should have then straightened up and then I lift the bulb little bit higher.
I've had bulb as close as 'inch or two' and can say it haven't been success in my case...ended up with very unhappy seedlings, it was too close in my set up system.
My bulbs are 45W..and I find the 10" distance from the plant tops adequate for their needs..though I find that when in seedling stage, little bit closer is advantage. But we all have our own ways of doing things, I just go by how the plants look like and adjust as they grow on.
 I found reference for 125W bulbs ..."For cuttings & seedlings, we'd recommend having your CFL 80cm away from the top of the propagator, for larger plants, the CFL should be 60cm away."  ....and that is with reflective hood above the bulbs.

What are those things in the foreground?

Those are sweet potato tubers...both rooted and showing first little sprouts. I've had them couple of days out of propagator...but they don't look quite as 'happy' being underlights as yet and I have put them back into propagator. I think they just need the combination of heat and moisture bit longer.

I am pleased I won't need the lids on my trays as they do take up a lot of room.  I will try to find some white cardboard to surround my growbox or failing that, I will apply some emulsion paint to ordinary cardboard.  I am now wondering if white polystyrene vegetable boxes could be used instead of cardboard as I have some spare.  I pick them up when Wilton market is on.  It may be a case of experimenting.

Polystyrene sounds good stuff, it is able to keep warmth in and temperature even...though I'm not familiar what size those type boxes are....should the plants out grow them...there is always ways to elevate the lights higher.
OH YES....experiment and learn from it...that is best way to get your DIY system working for you. There is no need to be worried about it, even if the plants don't look their best at first, they will soon respond to any changes you make..showing you when you get it right  'Listen' what they tell you and you won't go far wrong.
I keep putting my nose close them several times a day...and will notice all the subtle differences in them when I do adjust something..

[Paulines7]

It was kGarden who quoted the last bit of advice about CFL type lamps.

Oops, that was silly of me to miss that, Goodlife!  I probably replied using my small laptop as when I enlarge the posts to read them, the poster is off the page.  I probably just assumed it was from you as you have been so helpful replying to all my numerous queries. 

The polystyrene boxes come mainly in two sizes.  The broccoli boxes are much deeper and smaller than the other ones, but both have their uses.  I prefer the deeper ones as they can be filled with cuttings compost and are therefore more suitable for rose or other plant cuttings that need to go deeper into the compost.  I pick up the lids to them too as they are handy for breaking up and putting in the bottom of large tubs to save using too much compost.  I am then able to move the pots around more easily.  I usually move my tubs of bedding plants to a shady area near a water tap when I go on holiday.   The lighter they are to move, the better for my back!  It is the lids though that I am hoping to use to make up the grow box. 

Thank you for taking and posting a photo.  It gives me an idea of how big your grow box is. 

Good luck with your sweet potatoes. 

[kGarden]

"CFL type lamps needs to be as close as possible to the plants (without burning them), typically that will be an inch or two." 

The "power" of light reduces with distance according to the "inverse square law", which means if you double the distance you only get a quarter of the light power.

So increase from 2" to 4" and reduce by a quarter, further increase from 4" to 8" and you are down to only 1/16th of the light power :(

Hence why getting the lamp as close as possible benefits the plant (or wastes less available light).

I don't use CFLs so have no personal experience, so don't know how well they work with close distances. I have lighting rigs made up of fluorescent T5 tubes.  The tubes are spaced just a couple of inches apart (8 tubes in a 2' wide lighting rig), and the whole lighting rig is then positioned only a couple of inches above the seedlings.  It may be that with a CFL bulb that is not practicable.

All and any light will help of course, but to get the most from the lamp, or put any other way "waste the least energy", try to get it as close as possible.

[goodlife]

It may be that with a CFL bulb that is not practicable.
All and any light will help of course, but to get the most from the lamp, or put any other way "waste the least energy", try to get it as close as possible.

Oh indeed...I do agree 'as close possible'..too far and it is waste. The issue with CFL bulbs and with close spacing is the heat. Although they don't produce as much heat as other type grow lamps, 'inch or 'two' distance will be to hot for plants..particularly young and tender seedlings.

[kGarden]

Useful to know, thanks.

Am I right in thinking that the CFL lamp looks a bit like a Gatling gun! of narrow-bore fluorescent U-shaped tubes?  Does it have a reflector above it perhaps?

[goodlife]

Useful to know, thanks.

Am I right in thinking that the CFL lamp looks a bit like a Gatling gun! of narrow-bore fluorescent U-shaped tubes?  Does it have a reflector above it perhaps?

In past light 'cabinet' models I have used home made reflector above a bulb..but this time around, with the 'mark3' I haven't...yet.
All surfaces inside the unit is reflective material, so time will tell if that is good enough or if I have to craft separate reflector just above the bulb too....early days yet, but so far so good.
These sort of bulbs are rather large...lol..though I don't know what Gatling gun looks like but I can imagine one...

[Paulines7]

I just googled a Gatling gun and the CFL bulbs definitely do not look like them.  The 45W CFL is a helix spiral compact fluorescent lamp which produces a lot of light.  The 45 watts of power produces 3000 lumens, which is roughly the same as a 225w incandescent light.   It is a huge bulb. 
See:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/45w-Blue-Spectrum-6400k-CFL-grow-light-lamp-bulb-BC-B22-/200695971044?pt=UK_Baby_Baby_Feeding_Bottle_Warmers_Coolers_LE&hash=item2eba697ce4