Topic: Kilner Clip Jars - HELP PLEASE!

[Susiebelle]

I am using these for the first time this year and honestly I have never experienced such a failure rate!  but frustratingly even though I consider I do exactly the same process with each and every jar I have the occasional successful seal.
 
All the jars are new, I tried Wilko first after reading a thread here decided the problem was cheap jars so I invested in some from Lakeland, I follow the instructions meticulously even got O.H. involved yesterday cause I thought I was going crazy.  Yesterday did figs in spiced syrup and also figs in brandy syrup, I removed carefully from water bath and have left undisturbed for 24 hours just gone to them to check seal, removed clip and the lids shot up i.e no seal at all!

I have checked our search engine, trawled the web, e-mailed Ravendoda and spoken to Lakeland - what the devil am I doing so wrong ? is there any one out there that can help me

Susiebelle

[Georgie]

Hi Susiebelle

Like you I tried the Kilner jars for the first time this year, followed the instructions to the letter and as you say, no seal.  :(

I'm wondering if I put a bit too much in the jar?  I can't think of any other explanation and I hope someone who knows comes along soon to put us out of our misery.

G x

[Susiebelle]

Me too, thanks Georgie.

[peanuts]

Tried to reply to this yesterday but my connection with A4A seemed completely up the creek, still isn't good today, so here's hoping I can send this!
I do lots of bottling/sterilising, either in a big tall saucepan if I only have half a dozen jars to do, or in a big "stérilisateur", a huge pot that sits on a free-standing gas ring, and in which I can do  25-30 bottles at a time.  I rarely have any problems, just occasionally a jar that breaks.  I always test for seal when they have cooled down.  I leave them to cool in the hot water until the next day.

I'm mostly wondering if you don't have the temperature sufficiently hot?  The stérilisateur has a long thermometer that stands in it, so  you can check regularly the temperature.  It does fluctuate, too. It's really important that it  should be kept at 100º the whole time, and then cooking for appropriate times (two and a half hours for meat products,  3/4 - 1 hour for cooked fruit, and 1 and 1/4 hours+ for raw fruit. The water should cover the jars by best part of an inch.

Hope some of this helps.

[Susiebelle]

Firstly thank you Peanuts for taking to time to respond.

Can I ask you if once your jars are filled and ready for waterbath do you place them in pan and fill with cold water then bring up to boil or do you fill with hot/boiling water?

I do keep water bubbling and have done the figs in brandy syrup for 30 minutes.

However I have been removing jars from pan to cool and as you say check the seal after 24 hrs, I thought by leaving jars in the hot water after appropriate cooking time would result in over cooking of the fruit?

I processed another couple  using new rubber seals last night and both failed again, did one this morning and when removed from waterbath it looks as though water has got into the jar.

Could I possibly be 'breaking seal' removing from hot water?

Would appreciate your thoughts.

Susiebelle

[Susiebelle]

Peanuts, sorry to stalk you! but need to tell someone - started processing another jar before last response and thought I would try in cold water bath and bring upto temperature, just checked and water has got into jar I can see the bubble right under the lid the other thing I noticed was air bubbles were coming up from the lid (before water entered the jar).

Where am I going wrong - I have never followed any instructions as meticulously as these and so far have worked with beetroot, pasta sauce and now figs I know I am doing something wrong but how to find out what.

[peanuts]

Susiebelle, Im really sorry about your failures.  That's so frustrating.
Honestly I'm no expert, but since being in France I've done lots and lots of sterilising/bottling, cos it's widely done here.  All supermarkets/hardware/DIY/garden shops sell the necessary. So i've learnt from   others telling me what to do.

To answer your queries - I use cold water always if the contents of the jars are cold, and warm or hot water if contents are hot, to make sure I don't risk the jars breaking before I start!
You say 'bubbling' - 100º is only just bubbling.  It might be worth checking the actual temp if you have a thermometer. 

As I understand it, the temp of the water forces  air to escape from the  jars, as the contents heat up. Heat everything up slowly. The sterilising time needs to be sufficient to heat up the contents properly.  Then as the jar and contents cool down gradually (still in the water) a vacuum forms. I used to removed the jars immediately , but was told no, leave  them till the whole thing has cooled down completely.

Are you putting the rings on  properly, so that they are bedded down smoothly? Come to think of it, you are using rings, aren't you?  Forgive me for asking such a stupid question!  But once, when I was doing a large batch, I managed to put in one jar with no ring at all!

Are the rings the right size for your jars.  They come in three different sizes, also here in different qualities, orange for doing processing for shorter time, dark red for doing meat products that need over two hours processing.

Are you  making sure that the jar top and lid are absolutely wiped clean or seal won't work.
Only fill up to the line, which is probably about 3cm below the top (I haven't got a jar in front of me to check!)

Do you know anyone local to you who does bottling, who could come and show you?
I do hope you start having some success soon!  Good luck!

[Jeannine]

Hi susiebelle,

I am not sure if my reply will help much but here it is.

First off I do not use the Kilner type clip jars, they are not considered safe here as there are too may problems with them, some of the problems are..

they do not reliably seal, they have a higher breakage rate than other jars, if using the type of lid that has the seperate rubber ring the rubber ring perishes quite quickly, the rings should not be more than a year old which is difficult to be sure of unless dated(some are) and as some stores may not have a fast turnover they could be old when bought. Don`t boil the rubber rings before using them, it is sufficent to put them in very  hot water for a couple of minutes. However there are some types out there which should not be wet when placed on the jar so you need full instuctions with your jars to make sure you are doing the right thing.

Seals fail in storage more than the two piece lids.

If the clip ring is too loose  the jar may not seal, if too tight the jars can break.

Many of them are made in countries where the standards of mnufacture may  not be the best and as the clip is the iffy bit and has to be accurate  it is hard to be sure.

However folks do can ( bottle) in them so here follows a few reasons for jars failing.

If there is any food on the jar edge, even a little bit, it may  not seal, if the jar is out of round or chipped it will also fail.

Overfilling the jars, the fluid should cover any food in the jar but the fluid should leave a headspace of half inch for fruits and quarter inch for jams. Leaving too much headspace can also affect the seal.

Putting them in and taking them out of the canner is crucial, you need tongs that hold the jar round it`s belly so as not to put any pressure or twist on the rims.  Tipping them as you lift them out can cause a little leakage and the jar may fail.

Not having the right level in the canner during boiling is a biggy, the jars should be completely covered by at least one inch of water, 2 is better, and the canner has to be big enough to allow for this height plus a full rolling boil, the heat cannot be turned down lower to stop the water sloshing over.

Your canner should be preheated to 140 degrees for raw packed food and 180 for hot packed food,the jars to be put in immediately they are filled. Then allow the canner to come to a full rolling boil, this is 212 degrees and then start to time, don`t start to time when you put them in. After the required time allow just 5 minutes for the rolling boil to subside before you remove the jars otherwise the food can continue to cook, there is no need to leave them to cool in the canner, in fact I would not have time as I do so much that my canner is filled several times during one canning session.

Try tapping the tops of the lids after the 24 hour wait time(after they are removed) If sealed the lids will have a pleasant bell like sound, if not sealed you will hear a dull thunk..try it with a jar of shop bought jam before opening it, then after opening it, you will hear the difference.

If you tell me the heights of your jars when they have the lid on I can tell you what minimum height your pan should be.

There is a very good book on the market that is available on Amazon UK which is excellent by the way, it is called Putting Foods By, if you get one make sure you buy the most recent edition as practices change as we learn more about preservation. I think my most recent one is the 5th edition but it is on loan out right now to a friend so am not certain, there may ven be a 6th now as my current one is about three years old..

There is also a link on one of my posts that will take you to the USDA canning info, this is the US dept of agriculture and their canning info is spot on,here in Canada it is not as thorough and in the UK it is not up to date, so I update regularly with the US site.

Basic rules they will tell you is all high  acid fruit can be safely canned in a rolling boil large canning pan, but low acid items like veggies, fish and meat need to be preserved under pressure . The boiling water bath gets you to 212 degrees,but  even if you boil for 24 hours  the water cannot get hotter, low acid  preserves need a higher temp, a pressure canner will get  you to the higher temp. eg I use 240 for veggies, meat and fish.

I hope some of this helps you,I am still quite involved with the home preserving circles and it can be very frustrating. When I moved back to the UK  for a few years  in 2000 I was ready to throw the towel in when I saw what was available there but I found ways of making it work and  have shared the info many times here.

 Usually when I stick my neck out about food preservation on a UK site I get it clipped but hey ho...onwards and upwards so they say. The UK is  way behind in this field, sorry folks , but  I still have tons of stuff shipped over here that Canada simply does not have or does not have much selection ,the UK does some things better so I try to take the best from  all over the world and right now the leaders in food preservation are the US. I look forward to the day when you folks can pick up preserving jars with top notch two piece lids at any Tesco or Asda as I can, and they only cost about the same as fish and chips for a dozen jars  including lids and  caps.

I am sorry I can`t be more help, but don`t hesitate to ask if you need anything more.

XX Jeannine

Just as a PS... the magic number for ph when preserving is 4.6, the lower the number the higher the acid, eg  lemons 2.2-2.8 strawberries 3.0-3.9, tomatoes 4.0-4.6, (these are right on the borderline for acid content which is why a wee bit of acid needs to be added if preserving in a water bath(citric acid, vinegar or lemon juice),peppers 4.6-5.4 , beetroot 5.3-6.0. Figs are one of the  very few fruits that cross the safety line at 4.9-6.0 so the recipe is very important .

[Jeannine]

Hi I just remembered this really great site for help with canning ( bottling).bang on up to date and very interesting, make sure you read the quiz!

http://missvickie.com/canning/canning-frame.html

XX Jeannine

[Jayb]

http://missvickie.com/canning/canning-frame.html

Lovely site, thanks 

[Susiebelle]

How blessed we are on this site to have people who are happy to share their knowledge a big thank you to both Peanuts and Jeannine for your time,
I have spent days scouring the net for information pertinent to my situation, and no site I mean none came anywhere near - Ravenware (Kilner) are no help at all even their technical dept. and the technical department at Lakeland (I have always just loved Lakeland) got back to me yesterday with the advice that the clip lids are supposed to open and that I am not doing anything wrong - frustrating or what!

Peanuts, every one I have spoken to only uses kilner jars for jams etc. haven't found anyone that uses waterbath method.

I need a day away from it (it is doing my head in ) then as they say regroup and have another go. 

Thank you for the links and the book details I will look at amazon later today - need to think about Lakeland as well do I have a word or let them carry on giving out dangerous advice - they only sell the Jars no one said they had to know how to use them mmmm.....

Hope this has also been of help to you Georgie.  Onwards and upwards!

Once again, Many thanks.

Susiebelle

[Spireite]

Excellent thread here girls thank you, I've only ever put my jam into jars, and this year tried the water bath method to 'seal' them.  It worked a treat,    and I was telling my sister inlaw about how to do a water bath with a large pan...she had never heard of this and she was brought up to make lots of home made jams and chutneys!!!

I'm wondering about my mincemeat this year which will be made in the next 2-3 weeks.  Dried fruit, ground almonds, with suet, grated apple, lemon/orange juice and alcohol.  I find I have to let it sit before going into the jars as the apple ferments with the alcohol which then 'pops' the lids off the jars.  I don't know whether a waterbath would work for this, as the fruit is not cooked, and the alcohol acts as a preservative, and the mincemeat is used in December...so it is only in the jar about 3 months.  What do you think??

[Susiebelle]

Reporting back on Lakeland - the technical department advised me that they have received concerns/complaints from other customers this year so are reviewing the product meantime I have been given a refund - so I will be researching other Jars as recommended.
On a positive note just perhaps choosing Figs (taking on board Jeannine's comments) has been a blessing in disguise.

[Jeannine]

Spirerite, I make my own mincemeat and I do can (bottle), the only thing is the suetor butter  melts in the waterbath and tends to settle at the top, I just tip it into a bowl and stir it in. For three months I would not bother though if there is plenty of alcohol in it  but I use it all year round.

Susan, you can still do your figs but you must add some acid to them, 1 tablespoon (15ml) to a pint will do the trick, simmer fruit etc in syrup, process in boiling water bath for 45 minutes for pints. I would not use cold pack for figs.

 Have fun folks, I have 40 lbs of beetroot to do today and about 50 jars of grape jelly..oh and mint sauce too...are we all daft or what.

XX Jeannine

[galina]

I often use clip top jars from the French 'Le Parfait' range and never had a problem.  Their rings are very fat and solid too and last several seasons.  It sounds like those kilner jars and lids were not completely level in the way they were manufactured.  Shame about all your problems, just a refund on the faulty jars doesn't really cover your disappointment.  Hope with better jars you will be very successful in future.

[Susiebelle]

Certainly hope so galina, it has been my best year to date for figs, 65 and counting, but most have been spoiled by my determination to get to grips with these darn jars - well as said I have thrown the towel in.  I still intend to bottle/can but will use screw top jars in future.

Onwards and upwards