Topic: All About Apples

[Unwashed]

I plan on planting an apple orchard this winter, and maybe an espallier hedge too, but i don't have a great deal of experience with apples, and no experience of training espaliers, so I would welcome any apple-related experience and advice.

I've got maybe 5-10 poles to use as an orchard, plus an additional 50m where I could train espalliers or some such.

For varieties I'm pretty open-minded.  I'd like a couple of eaters and a cooker, and it would make sense if together they could polinate each other, and I'd have space for a crab if that looked like a good idea.

But I'm a tight-wad, so I'm seriously thinking about buying MM106 rootstock and trying my hand at grafting, and I'm also looking at the 60p price of apple hedging stock and wondering what kind of apple they'd produce.

ANy appler-related thoughts and experience welcome.

[davee52uk]

What's the point of being a tight wad with apples. Once they crop they will easily pay for themselves in the first crop.

Anyway I think you need to decide how big you want the trees. I have two mature trees reportedly planted to mark the end of WWII. They are very big but produce a vast amount of apples so I'm eating them from July to Dec. After that I never want to see an apple again; at least for 6 months. I also planted a dwarf stock cooking apple tree which seems to work O.K.

Why stick at apples ? What about wild trees which will cost zero ? I'm thinking of wild damson, plums and sloes. All available wild and free in my area (Leamington, Warwickshire) and will grow from small plants quite quickly.

[Fuchsias]

Personally, unless you are experienced at grafting I would buy plants.

You don't have to pay over the odds, especially if you only want a few.  Morrisons, at various times of the year supply quality trees for about a fiver. I've got an opal plum and a bramley cooker onmy plot.  Its only in its 3rd year but have cropped over 20lbs of apples this year.  More than paid for itself.  The plum didn't fruit this year (except fo ra handful) but it has been a particularly bad year for plums but had over 15lbs last year (in its 2nd year)

[goodlife]

You've got golden opportunity to get all sorts of interesting looking and tasting apples and with a bit of careful planning you can keep yourself in apples from end of July to May (providing the storage is suitable) 
With number of apples being in same area..you should not need any crab varieties for pollination..they will be just taking valuable space that you could grow more useable varieties instead.
As for the price vs. quality. In my experience..you get what you pay for. I've got about 30 odd apple trees on my plots..majority of them from fruit nurseries and odd few are 'cheapies' and the quality does show. For start with you won't know what you are going to end up with..they often have 'wrong label' issues and you don't know what root stock they are crafted on. 
I have crafted some myself..cheaper way getting trees but you do wait year or two longer to get first crop.
I have been building up my 'collection' of apples together over last few years..few each year and the cost doesn't 'hurt' as much as buying it all in one go.
As for the rootstocks...MM106 might be little bit on the vigorous side for any trained form of trees..still useable, but I would use that for any 'free standing' trees and personally I favour M26 for trained trees. Hedging 'stock' will be crab apples..and can be too vigourous for crafting.
If/when you do some crafting...do practice your cutting technique before you tackle the real thing..trust me, you will find it VERY helpful. Even I've done it before, I still practice it few times before I start cutting the real things..helps to get your hands 'in mood' for it. Crafting is not very difficult..if you do your home work advance you should end up with some 'home made' trees. Plenty of info on net/youtube how to do it!
You do have get your shopping gear on quite soon though....particularly crafting stock soon sells out, so don't leave it too late!
I bought some rootstocks to craft nectarines couple of months ago..and even then the nursery was running low with availability.

[Digeroo]

More by luck than judgement I have a good selection.  The first to crop is Discovery.  It certainly pays for itself several times every year.   Then we get James Grieve and finally Golden Delicious which tastes better than the shop ones but hated this years wet weather.  They have all been cropping for 25 plus years.

 I have several from Lidl which were very cheap and rarely the variety stated on the pack but none the less I am pleased with the results.   Got a Jonagold which produces very few very large fruits and another red one (golden delicious on the packet) which is the best tasting apple I have ever tasted and no one has yet managed to identify.  I am hoping to learn how to graft from it.   Also got a Bramley (!) which turned out to be an eater with rather nice golden apples but not golden delicious.    They are mostly on dwarf stock since after five years they are still small, except one which was in a pot but which after only two years has rocketed skyward and is allready 3m tall.  It was supposed to be a ultra dwarf.

Thanks for the tip about root stocks I must get some.  When is the best time to do the grafting?

[goodlife]

When is the best time to do the grafting?

Um..let say that once you get the rootstocks..you can plant them up into large pots and keep them in cold GH..they will then happily wait untill the time is right for crafting. If I use craft wood straight from the existing trees..I wait until the root stocks are showing signs of 'sap rising'..the bud start showing sings of swelling..but no green yet. That stage the root stock is able to 'push up' life into the craft and the healing takes place very rapidly.
That is my own notification...generally if you do anytime during late dormancy and it should be fine.
Specific timing is very difficult as it depends spring temperatures are advancing each year.

[Unwashed]

Interesting comments, thank you, please keep them coming, I'm still far from decided what I mean to do.

[Unwashed]

Apart from Lidl, does anyone have other places to recommend buying from?  Cheapest looking nursary I've found so far is Adams Apples - any experience?  £10 each doesn't seem too bad, and £7 if I buy 25 all in one go.

[pumkinlover]

I use  rv rogers of pickering but they are not cheap.

[daveyboi]

Apart from Lidl, does anyone have other places to recommend buying from?  Cheapest looking nursery I've found so far is Adams Apples - any experience?  £10 each doesn't seem too bad, and £7 if I buy 25 all in one go.

The three that crop up on this forum normally in respect of fruit trees are Blackmoor, Deacon's and to a lesser extent Keepers.

However as I have been researching the same sort of thing as you I came across this site which seems very interesting and quite reasonable prices it seems.
 http://www.realenglishfruit.co.uk/

Are you looking at your orchard as purely a common type or wanting to use heritage and local varieties?
If you are going along the heritage / local then the more specialist nursery like Keepers seems a good starting point for detailed information. Also in this area look at Brogdale as well.

[daveyboi]

How are you getting on with your choices?

[Unwashed]

Hi daveyboi

I'm still very open-minded, but I'm firming up a bit on the idea of 10 espalliers and 10 standards (and the best price I've seen so far is £7 if I buy 25 so I'm up for that - anyone neear Newbury want to share an order?).  I don't think I'll be grafting myself as it would add a couple of years to the fruiting time of the espalliers and more to the standards.  Variety-wise I'd like to stick with the easier more robust and disease-tolerant ones, so no cox for example, and I might go with all eater as you can still cook with eaters I'm told.

I'm visiting Houghton Lodge Gardens tomorrow as I remember that they have an impressive walled garden with a number of espalliers and I'm after some inspiration.

[goodlife]

I saw some fruit trees in sale in our local Asda at £5 each..several varieties of each sort of fruit.
Yes..you can still cook with 'eaters'...some don't cook into fluffy puree like 'cookers' do..but otherwise they will be fine.

[Unwashed]

I saw some fruit trees in sale in our local Asda at £5 each..several varieties of each sort of fruit.
Yes..you can still cook with 'eaters'...some don't cook into fluffy puree like 'cookers' do..but otherwise they will be fine.

Hmm, we don't have a local Asda, but there's one in Andover so I might pop in tomorrow and have a look see.  Thanks.

[daveyboi]

Hope you enjoy your visit to Houghton Lodge Gardens and I will be interested if it changes you towards some of the rarer heritage varieties for your orchard.

[Russell]

Unwashed, I have worked over the sums very carefully and I cannot quite seem to make them add up.
If you have 10 rods which is 2722.5 sq ft then for 20 trees each gets 136 sq feet i.e. a planting 'on the square' of about 11.5 feet apart, making no allowance for access e.g. the wheelbarrow you will need at harvest time.
A standard tree on M25 rootstock needs 15 or 20 feet spacing.
A bush on MM106 needs 12 to 15 foot spacing.
A bush on M26 might work, needing 10 to 12 foot spacing. However this is not the standard tree you mentioned. You would need to permanently stake the trees and keep the ground bare. Depending on your soil you might need to apply fertiliser to some trees and if you have a number of different varieties be alert to those which try to take over their neighbours' space.
If they were all espaliers, and you could fit in 4 rows 8 feet apart, each 85 feet long having 5 trees, then MM106 would do nicely for a rootstock. The expense and work of all that posts wires eyebolts tensioners canes ties etc would be rather a commitment, but after a few years you could grass them down.
I have had three espalier pear trees for over 40 years, much though I like them I have no desire to grow any more in that shape as the upkeep is disproportionate.
Following an article in the Kitchen Garden a couple of years ago I have started a trial of the much-neglected Dwarf Pyramid form. The promise is that I might have trees on MM106 at 8 foot spacing with no permanent structures, and with grass paths. We shall see.

[Unwashed]

Hi Russell

I have a 4-5m wide strip along the back (north) of the 50m long site that I recon can accomodate 10 standards on MM106 all in a line - they get to about 12' tall and wide I think (on average) and the trees would be around 5m apart.

The espalliers I'd plant at the front of the site (facing south) between five big pollarded willows with the wire strained between the pollards.  See photo.  That's my thinking, but I'm still open to ideas.  20 trees sounds like quite a lot, and it'll be quite a bit of maintenance and cost a fair bit to establish, but I'm up for it.

[Russell]

Unwashed, thanks for your reply with photo. One picture worth a thousand words.
I'm sorry to say that between the willows strikes me as an unpromising site for apples.
Apple trees need water in quantity (the growers in Kent irrigate), and willow roots are notorious for sucking the ground dry. By all means carry out a trial, but with only a restricted commitment of finance labour and emotional capital, by which I mean try an el-cheapo tree from Aldi or wherever, don't set your hopes too high, and be prepared to dig it up after a couple of seasons if it does not do well.
Your plans for bush trees seem OK to me except that you are planning an in-row planting distance at the short end of the range. If you get vigorous varieties on good soil, then in seven or so years you could be overcrowded. The RHS bible, The Apple Book, recommends for bush trees on MM106 a planting distance of 12 to 15 feet. Commercial growers plant much closer than this, but they have lots of trees all the same variety and vigour. The usual amateur hotch-potch is best handled with a generous spacing.
Of course guidance is available to tell you which varieties are vigorous and which are moderate, and mostly it is helpful. However it is true that on any site some varieties will be more vigorous than expected and others less so, so guidance can be no more than just a guide.

[goodlife]

Hmm..I can see what you are trying to achieve..but like Russell said..between willows it will be VERY challenging for any other trees.
And those willows are mature sort as well so their roots will cover the whole area leaving the ground struggle for other trees.
But if you try to think the growing in 'woodland terms'..you've got the top canopy there (willows) and next would be shrubbery..all currants and gooseberries, chanomeles etc. would tolerate the competition and although they would not grow and big and lush as in open situation, they could still provide useful crop with less actual pruning work 
I agree with 'trial' planting with few apple trees to see how they would go on..it would be shame to spend such amount of money and find it they need transplanting again or waste it.

[Digeroo]

How often are the willows pollarded looks as if they have been done recently.  They can get quite bit between hair cuts.

Have you thought about step overs I think there are some at Wisley.

http://apps.rhs.org.uk/advicesearch/Profile.aspx?pid=598