Topic: Urgent legal advice needed

[Steve.]

Hi,

I hope someone can help, and please be honest...if you think I'm being daft...then please say so.

I've just had a very one sided difference of opinion with my plot neighbours, I'll explain.

In the diagram below, plot 1 is my current plot..I have had it since earlier this year, just recently I have also taken on plot 2, my neighbours to plot 2 had an arrangement with the now leaving tenant of plot 2 to come and build a rabbit proof fence between the plots, the blue line represents what they have built and where they have put it, its 3 foot from the original fence line at its widest to their benefit it also extends a good 30ft, and its attached to an old shed that I will be dismantling ove the winter. Naturally, I would want to straighten the fence up and put it back to where it should be but the neighbour effed and blinded and stormed away when I mentioned helping her to finish the fence off and to straighten it. I walked away at this point and a few minutes later her partner came round to put his point of view.



He told me it had all been agreed with the now leaving plotholder,

I then mentioned that I had spoken to the leaving plotholder and she had told me that what she saw, she did not agree too. She is from the sudan and has only a basic grasp of English.

Anyway, this chap would not let me get a word in so I walked away thinking I'll broach the subject another day when they have calmed a little as by now they had effed etc and would not give me chance to speak or if I did I could not complete a sentence. He stormed off shouting at the top of his voice..."It's war"...I really could not believe what I was hearing.

Anyway...to clear all this hassle I probably did the wrong thing and went and apologised (dont know what for, but I did) and smoothed things over best I could.

But now I need to know where or how I stand legally with regards to plot boundaries and agreements between plotholders and to the best of my knowledge not known by the parish council who we rent from.

I'm thinking that boundary movements should be agreed at council level first before fencelines are moved.

What do you think?..and please be honest.

Steve...:)

[djbrenton]

The boundary is as laid down by the lessor. Neither lessee has the right to alter the boundaries, albeit the fence can be put wherever you both choose. The problem then comes, however, if the fenceline is not challenged.

There is a famous case where a tramp had lived in a shed on someone's land in Mayfair. Because they had fenced it off for enough years they had acquired legal title to the land (worth a cool million) Neither you nor the other tenant have the right to do anything which could affect title to the land, so boundary fences should always follow the boundary.

[Ellen K]

I think it's more to do with the neighbours trespassing and denying you access to part of your plot.

This could put them in breach of their tenancy agreement.

I'd just say to them: nice try but the boundary fence is going on the boundary duh!  Or you will take it up with the landlord.

It never ceases to amaze me how greedy some plot holders are, trying any old trick to get a few extra inches from the neighbours, often when they are not even fully cultivating the land they've already got.

[Kleftiwallah]

"The previous tennant let me park my car in his garage,  just because you have bought the house, doesn't mean I have to stop parking my car there" ! ! ! !


Can you see the newspaper headlines ?    ::) ::) ::)    Cheers,    Tony.

[katynewbie]

Sounds like they reacted so badly cos they know they are in the wrong. If you have a bit of paper handy and draw the same as above for them, it should be obvious to them that you are in the right?!

[Old bird]

Sounds like you should speak to the Council and let them sort it out.  It is their problem not yours and they hopefully will take the heat out of the situation. 

Best of luck

Old Bird

[Monkey Brains]

Have you got a site rep that can help you? You might get a quicker response than involving your local Council (who may have multiple sites and thousands of plotholders to deal with). A site rep ought to have a plan that marks all the plot boundarys so it should show whether the one between yours and your neighbour is a straight line or not.

From your description of the facts, my honest (but entirely non-legal!) opinion is that you ought to be able to straighten the fence and put the boundary back where it should be, but if I was your neighbour I would want you to offer to bear all the costs and do all of the work around reinstating the fence, seeing as I agreed something with the previous plotholder and did all of the work and bore the expense of putting it up in the first place, and it's your choice to take the shed down & straighten it up again. And do they have any winter crops or permanent planting in that triangle they've "acquired"?

That said, your neighbour is going to be your neighbour for a very long time and I know (from having had a heated disagreement 2 years ago with my new neighbour who decided to dig up their half of our shared path thereby rendering the whole thing completely unusable) that it really spoils your enjoyment of your plot when you've had a falling out and your neighbours irritate you... (to the point that we've been known to turn around and go home if we spot them on the plot in the distance, on the thankfully rare occasions that they bother to turn up)

 

[Steve.]

"Tennants should not under any circumstances seek to extend the boundaries of their plots"

The above is from our tennants rules, I did not have a copy untill today.

The reason my neighbours have moved the fence inwards so much is to avoid destroying the roots of the native hedge that they planted themselves (right tight up against the old fence), whilst digging in this new fence. I need to ask why they  could not then of erected the rabbit fence on their side of their hedge.

Plot 1 (my current plot) is rabbit protected all round, dug down to a good overall depth, plot 2 (my new plot) is protected to the left by another plotholders fence and too the front by plot 1. If I move plot 1's rear fence all the way back then plot 2 will be protected on three sides, my neighbours could then use the materials from their new fence elsewhere on their plot as protection...I need to ask them this too.

The parish council clerk will be visiting in the morning but I hope I can just tell him..."It's all sorted out now" as I hope they will agree to one of the above, rather than being told by the council clerk which could then cause ongoing problems or as was shouted at me.."War"

Steve...:)

[goodlife]

Oh I do hope your negotiator skills are good. But even with best skills some people are not 'sociable'..once they've set their minds certain way..they don't budge.. ::)
Good luck!

[lincsyokel2]

Right. But if they needed to put up a rabbit proof fence, they shoudl have put it up on THERE land, not the adjoining land.

Secondly, the previous tenant, as stated, had no authority to attempt to change the boundaries.

Thirdly, the law says you have the inalienable right to enjoy the full benefit of your tenancy unhindered and without obstruction, therefore any infringment of that right (such as your neigbour illegally moving the boundary, depriving you of some of the land you now legally rent) really is up to the landlord to enforce, complain to them if the idiot next door wont cooperate.

[Steve.]

The Parish council will write to my plot neighbours and ask them to reinstate the old fence, as soon as I know they have received the letter, I will offer to do the job for them, then let them know that the fence in contention will not see a rabbit pass from my side so they can use their materials to protect other parts of their plot. Hopefully that will be enough to satisfy everyone.

At least they should no longer be angry with me, as the instruction comes from the council.

Steve...:)

[Digeroo]

At least they should no longer be angry with me

I would not hold my breathe on that, if the letter comes from the council they might be even more niggled.

[Buster54]

What you should have done is give your plot neighbour a letter(after your confrontation) that you have made a general enquiry to the parish council on plot boundaries,using your situation hypothetically,and say that they said no one should alter the boundaries on any plot and as the boundary alteration is going to effect your plot plan you are going to alter it back to its original being,give them a date that you are going to start the work and maybe how long it is gonna take and what you intend to do with the old fence,ask for a hand
For me it was a mistake contacting the council so soon as now you have to wait till your neighbour decides to move the fence which could take well once the knee ops sorted and the sus heart attack and bad back have cleared up who knows,its not about his fence its about reclaiming your plot

[Aden Roller]

As everyone has said your neighbour's rabbit fence is in the wrong place. An informal agreement made with a previous tennant can't stand even if she ageed to it in the first place.

How you go about getting that point across to the rabbit-fence owners is another matter. I think contacting the Parish Council may have been my last move.

Try talking to them again... if that fails a note pinned to their shed if they have one.

Is there any sort of elected warden or site manager? An informal word with them may have helped. Either way your neighbours need to know that the fence will be moved to follow the legal plot boundary and you have the backing of the site owners whoever they are.

Good luck.

It's a shame people have to swear - it's threatening and bullying. Poor show on them.  >:(
Don't be put off.

[lincsyokel2]

The fence is a trespass, you are perfectly entitled to pull it up and place it on his land, and put your own fence up running along the boundary, posts on your side.  I would write a letter and stick it on his shed door, saying  you will remove the fence and  reinstate the boundary in 30 days if he doesnt do it, and send a copy to the landlord ( of the letter, not the fence).  You dont need a rabbit fence in November, so you're not causing hi many grief.

[Steve.]

I've cherry picked info, thoughts and ideas from members on this topic and on another forum where I posted this same topic. I also have background knowledge of this couple from other plot holders. They are well known for how they are.

I have offered several times to help, but that was thrown back in my face as "Dont patronise me with the ammount of work I have to do" Just an example of what talking actually does, it's just not a way forward talking to them. However, I will offer to do the work once I know they have the letter as a last ditch peacemaking gesture.

Our site rep who liases with the council and our allotment society chairman are both fully in the picture of what has been going on and neither of them are surprised by their antics/behaviour.

When all is said and done, they have broken the rules of the allotment and that is the end of it. They however will still benefit from having rabbit protection from my side as all entry points will be blocked before spring, and they have the materials they used for the fence to use elsewhere on their plot for protection too. So they actually benefit all round. And if they had let me get a word in the other day that could have been explained to them.

My only course of action was to go through the parish council.

Steve...:)

[lincsyokel2]

I've cherry picked info, thoughts and ideas from members on this topic and on another forum where I posted this same topic. I also have background knowledge of this couple from other plot holders. They are well known for how they are.

I have offered several times to help, but that was thrown back in my face as "Dont patronise me with the ammount of work I have to do" Just an example of what talking actually does, it's just not a way forward talking to them. However, I will offer to do the work once I know they have the letter as a last ditch peacemaking gesture.

Our site rep who liases with the council and our allotment society chairman are both fully in the picture of what has been going on and neither of them are surprised by their antics/behaviour.

When all is said and done, they have broken the rules of the allotment and that is the end of it. They however will still benefit from having rabbit protection from my side as all entry points will be blocked before spring, and they have the materials they used for the fence to use elsewhere on their plot for protection too. So they actually benefit all round. And if they had let me get a word in the other day that could have been explained to them.

My only course of action was to go through the parish council.

Steve...:)

too right. dont suffer selfish arrogant fools gladly, i dont.

[cornykev]

100% with you on this one Steve, I don't think I'd have been so nice.   :-X ;)

[Aden Roller]

Good for you trying the "nice" approach to start with Steve. (Personally I'd always try it first).

Obviously they are being little b***ers... and you've done your best to communicate and cope with unpleasant, uncooperative neighbours.

Your next moves sound both wholly justified and reasonable.

Good luck.  :)