Topic: Riots in north London

[Digeroo]

Terrible. Unusual for me can't think of what to say.  Just awful.  Let's hope if can be contained and does not spread.

I went to school about 1/2 mile from the burnt out store in Croydon.  Still have furniture bought there.  Really brings it home.

But there is something desparately wrong.  These young people have stopped caring.
Tragic for everyone.

My heart goes out to anyone caught up in this violence.

[grannyjanny]

How upsetting for you all Deb. Will the government do the right thing, we shall see. It can't be allowed to continue. Five generations have had the Reeves furniture store, part of London's history & wiped out in one fell swoop along with numerous others. Soooooo sad :'(.

[betula]

Awful for you Deb....so sorry.

[plainleaf]

there is only one choice now the the police have lost control.
call up military up quell violence. issue curfew arrest anyone who breaks it and shoot rioters. will they let London burn.

[Duke Ellington]

Frog legs

I feel that you have explained yourself in better way second time around rather than just latch on to the opinion of another poster who can be  antagonist when he discusses most everyday topics eg trips to the supermarket or similar!  I do accept your apology .......sort of ...my issue with all of this is that when some thing like this happens so many people are quick to mention immigrants. There are many issues involved with this situation. There were many white youths involved in the vandalism. There were many black youths involved in the vandalism. There is a high percentage of black people living in Tottenham. This is what Tottenham is. So what do we do.....blame immigration. This  has little to do with immigration. In fact most of this chaos isn't  being created by immigrants.Tottenham is inner city, multicultural and will stay that way. Finally there are many white youths who as you mentioned are...
"Living in the UK just for the benefits, who bites the hand that feeds them by contributing nothing in return"
There really is no need to jump on the immigration issue here.

Duke

[Linnea]

I just wish to extend my sympathy to any/all affected by this. it's just horrible. I just don't have the words.

I was up in Forest Hill on Sunday and am due to go again this weekend although I think I may not go as it's not imperitive.

[Gadget]

Hope she is ok Deb  :)

[Melbourne12]

Frog legs

I feel that you have explained yourself in better way second time around rather than just latch on to the opinion of another poster who can be  antagonist when he discusses most everyday topics eg trips to the supermarket or similar!  I do accept your apology .......sort of ...my issue with all of this is that when some thing like this happens so many people are quick to mention immigrants. There are many issues involved with this situation. There were many white youths involved in the vandalism. There were many black youths involved in the vandalism. There is a high percentage of black people living in Tottenham. This is what Tottenham is. So what do we do.....blame immigration. This  has little to do with immigration. In fact most of this chaos isn't  being created by immigrants.Tottenham is inner city, multicultural and will stay that way. Finally there are many white youths who as you mentioned are...
"Living in the UK just for the benefits, who bites the hand that feeds them by contributing nothing in return"
There really is no need to jump on the immigration issue here.

Duke

Just for the record, only you and Barriedalenick mentioned immigration.  I realise that it's an old technique, putting words into the mouths of your opponents in a debate in order to knock down an argument that hasn't in fact been made.

The original concern wasn't with immigration or the ridiculous question of skin colour (we might as well debate hair colour or eye colour; Swift would have had a field day).  It was about multiculturalism, now widely discredited, but whose effects persist and will continue to do so.

And in case that makes you bristle, let me remind you that "culture" is not an attribute only of a few groups defined by social workers, but of everyone.  Even I am allowed to have my "culture", despised though it is by bien pensants.

Multiculturalism has led to the separation of several "cultures" of underclass.  The common factors are their lack of schooling, and their overwhelming self-regard.  Multiculturalism keeps them within the boundaries of their estates and denies them the opportunity to break free.  And the most cursory examination of demographic data will show you, if you really can't break your obsession with skin colour, that the white-skinned underclass hugely outnumber the black.

[BarriedaleNick]

I just wish to extend my sympathy to any/all affected by this. it's just horrible. I just don't have the words.

I was up in Forest Hill on Sunday and am due to go again this weekend although I think I may not go as it's not imperitive.

I live in Forest Hill - its fine here..

[antipodes]

There are lots of pictures of the rioters (There are gonna be loads of people employed to pour over the pictures and recognize the guilty parties)...and they are of all colours. So the immigration debate seems moot. And as an immigrant myself I feel legitimate to say that!
I agree with many posters, it comes down to respect. No more work ethic, no more tolerance of others' opinions, it's easier to lie, cheat and steal and sell drugs (and you have more chance of getting away with it). In the past people were poor but honest however now this type of behavior is seen as socially acceptable in some parts. My parents were poor but they didn't steal or riot. My grandfather was a miner with 7 children - he never got anything from anybody and he worked hard to support his family. That sounds like an old fuddy duddy argument but I am hardly a right-winger! The bad apples do spoil the lot, and such a shame for all the people working hard to improve their community.

This is just CRIME - it's looting, stealing and arson. The means from our point of view over here do seem insufficient - in France they would have brought out the anti riot squad who don't take any c**p and don't hesitate to use tear gas, and water cannons and break up the mobs that are causing the trouble. These guys take their chances, and as law abiding citizens we have a duty to say that their behavior will not be tolerated.

I consider myself to be a tolerant person but I think that extreme measures are needed in extreme situations. This is not a political protest, it is social mutiny and an insult to all the people who work hard and keep their noses clean.
I hope all of you and your property remain safe. 

[Digeroo]

Youth Service budget to be cut by 75 per cent to around £650,000, saving £1.96million by 2013. Eight youth centres closed already, the remaining five under threat.
Connexions careers advice service for vulnerable young people reduced by 75 per cent saving £1.64million

Childrens centre service reduced and targeted at most vulnerable, saving £6.52million by 2013.
 This is just Haringey
http://www.haringey.org.uk/content/cuts/159-haringey-cuts-in-brief

How do these kind of cuts fit into the equation?  What sort of message does it send?

I think we have too many young people with an attitude problem and hence the need to import workers from Poland, Slovakia etc.  

their overwhelming self-regard

 I think this is so right.  Young people have been encouraged to be confident but somehow managed to loose sight of consideration for others.  The 'Do as you would be done by' lessons have been missed.  Which seems to go right back to Ancient Greece.

Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others." – Isocrates
; "What you avoid suffering yourself try not to impose on others. ...

[jimtheworzel]

we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power

[gypsy]

Time for panic buying and sleepless nights. As usual we are surprised and unprepared, but in hindsight maybe we should have seen it coming.

[rosebud]

  Cameron get the troops in & water cannons, get some backbone man & get theses THUGS & LOOTERS off our streets NOW. >:( >:( >:( >:(

[Melbourne12]

we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power

Well there's a surprise!   ;D ;D ;D

[OllieC]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots

And this, from Penny Red who I think is an excellent writer & commentator:
http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html?spref=fb

[Bugloss2009]

we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power

Well there's a surprise!   ;D ;D ;D

they must be doing something right then

[Melbourne12]

we only seem to get this kind of trouble when a conservative gov is in power

Well there's a surprise!   ;D ;D ;D

they must be doing something right then

Indeed.  And can you imagine the outrage if conservative voters had rioted every time their freedoms were curtailed by the recent labour administrations.

Riot and violence are the natural political weapons of fascists.  This was UK Uncut's kristallnacht.

[SamLouise]

I had so much I wanted to say but upon reflection, I don't feel I can say anything.  I know that must sound silly but the more I watch, the more speechless I become about it all.

One thing I am sure of, more affirmative action is needed.  Watching those situations play out bit by bit live on air last night was sickening.  Force is needed, examples need to be set.  It's very difficult to watch as these morons just get away with it and peoples lives are being ruined.  Why is that happening?  It's all very well for MP after MP to make stupid statements such as, 'this will not be tolerated', 'these criminals will be brought to justice', etc etc - no they won't, they never are and the crims themselves know it - why do you think they're out there on the street with their nonchalant attitudes, destroying people's lives and property?  They don't care.  They know that it'll take forever to get to court and when it does, they'll be fined or given a six month suspended sentence. 

Anyway, I said I wouldn't get started and I can't - else I'll be here all day, LOL

For those in the areas involved; be safe.  Do as the police ask and try not to go out on the streets.  It's very disruptive to every day life but the alternatives could be worse.  I see the man who was shot in his car in Croydon last night has died but I can't comment too much on that as I don't know the full details. My husband and I were in Enfield on Sunday night when it kicked off and although it wasn't close to us, there was definitely a lot more people and traffic on the streets as we left and it does feel unnerving. 

I find it distressing and sad - and I also feel immensely angry about it all >:(

[Bugloss2009]

hordes of young people of every creed and colour coming together with a common purpose, lots of running about and throwing things, extraordinary disruption and vast expense..............can't we just pretend the Olympics have started early?

the People's Olympics?

the Peckham Olympics?