Topic: Which green manures?

[Stedic]

We're going to end up with some empty beds over the winter but I don't want the weather to undo the improvements we've made to the soil this year.  The soil is clay but most beds have an inch think layer of compost.  We're using a broadly no dig system, so I was unsure whether or not to use green manures at all?  I suppose I'm worried that if we sow winter tares to improve the soil quality, this might be undone as we dig it in and expose the clay to air.

Are green manures even that effective?

Which ones would you suggest?

[saddad]

For a starter I would always recommend Phacalia... It doesn't mess with any rotation... any self sets are easily spotted.. it does a good job for the soil structure near the surface. Will die down and rot into the surface in a hard Winter...
If it does flower the bees love it!  :)

[Digeroo]

I love phacelia too, it breaks off easily so easy to dig in or leave on top as a mulch and grows through most winters and it produces plenty of seed by leaving a few patches.

I also like wheat.  It grows off and on during the winter and then you can dig it in spring, I just turn it in does not try to grow again.  At this time of year I sooner or later find a spillage, and carry a brush an dustpan in the car to sweep it up, got half a bucketfull the other day, there was a thick layer round a corner of the road.   The roots seem to break up the soil well so there seems to be as mulch fibre below soil as above.  Also for me makes a good mulch.

Mustand is good too, but a but of a pain to pull it up if you leave it too long.  Also self seeds well for folloiwing year a few plants produce quite a lot.

I am also trying red clover but it has to be sown quite early so at the moment it is coming up between some crops which will go before the winter:  sweet corn, calabrese and cabbages. 

It is not always necessary to dig in the green manures, you can cut them off and just plant leaving the top as mulch.   If you catch mustand and phacelia early enough you can just hoe them off.

For carrots/parsnips I cover the soil with a thick layer of compost which I then remove in the spring. 

I have very free draining soil,  so the green manures hopefully pick up the last of the nutrients in the soil before they are leeched out by the winter rain and then release them back to the plants the following year. 

[caroline7758]

Another vote for phacelia here. I sowed some on a spare patch thn forgot and now I have it coming up between my spuds but it doesn't seem to have done them any harm! I've also started using fenugreek - got a big packet from the asian supermarket. it comes up quite quickly andis easy to dig in. I've also got, unintentionally, borage, which has self-seeded everywhere. I always leave some of it (too much really!) to flower and hoe the rest off while it is still small and leave it on the surface to rot and mulch.Borage wouldn't be any good over winter though, and if you've got rabbits they will eat whatever you sow!

[manicscousers]

Another vote for phacelia here, tried alfalfa last winter and the bad weather came before it colf get big enough to do any good, we also have borage which is a good addition to the compost heap  :)

[banksy]

I have just taken on a new plot and in a similar situation where I am too late to fill all the new beds that I have dug, so I went for a general mix of Forage Rye, English Early Common Vetch, Minerva Maple Peas, Italian Rye grass.  I am not sure how effective it will be but if it keeps the weeds at bay that will almost be good enough for me.  ;D

Digeroo, thanks for the tip on wheat - I'll be on the lookout for spillage as well.  When is the latest this can be sown and do you just leave it all winter until next spring before digging in?


Iain

[JENIAN]

Barley for me.  Plant September.  Dig in when 6ins tall.  Never had a problem. Farmers will sell for £5 a bag.

Ian

[banksy]

Ian,


As a green manure what would the difference be between Barley and Wheat?  Would one be better than the other and for what reason?


Iain

[Digeroo]

I just use whatever I can get though I thought that winter wheat grew better duing the winter being more cold tolerant. 

[Stedic]

Thanks for the advice.

If I go with phacelia, do I just sow it around now and harvest it in the early spring?

[Uncle_Filthster]

I did my Honours project on nutrient accumulation in overwintering green manures.  Rye was by far the best as it kept on growing, wheat was ok but slow and dormant a lot of the time.  All of the hardy legumes basically did little more than germinate, use up seed resources to establish and sat dormant.

[Squash64]

I love Phacelia too.  I wrote about it earlier in the year - http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,67108.0.html

I pulled it all up in June so I could plant my pumpkin there and it has seeded itself again and is about a foot tall now. 

[Jeannine]

I think I am doing fava beans this year as they die down in the frost but leave lots of bulk and nitrigen in the ground..or possibly field peas

XX Jeannine

[manicscousers]

we're sowing in 2 beds now, once they've reached a good size, Ray chops them down and we cover the bed so they rot into the soil over winter  :)

[pumkinlover]

I like field beans too -sown later oct/nov last year made a fantastic growth which I cut down and added to compost heap. The earlier sowings died off in the harsh weather but the later ones survived. If I cut down earlier they could be left insitu but I left till flowered as got so many bees on them :D

I was too fond of the phacelia although I love it- I could never  get rid of it and ended up with a permanent patch :)

Rye and tares I found hard to dig over and now doing no dig I find field beans the best.

But as we are all coming up with different choices I guess it is like most things- what suits one does not another.
I was interested in Uncle Filsthster's comments as so different from my own experience.

[Digeroo]

  Rye was by far the best as it kept on growing

 

Interesting but any idea of where to get it at a reasonable price.   I can buy a 500g packet from a health food shop for £1 but those do not tend to germinate, a bag from a green manure supplier is £7.  I should really like to pay less than £1 per kilo.
It is available as milled flour at £1.30 so charging so much for green manure is ridiculous.

[Uncle_Filthster]

The University got their seed from an agricultural seed supplier, not sure of the name as it was 12/13 years ago but it may have been 'British Seed Merchants'.   They used this source as one of the lecturers did a lot of agricultural crop research so we needed guaranteed good germination and varieties used in agriculture.

A farm merchant may be a good place to try but it would probably be a 25kg sack you have to buy

[Kleftiwallah]

"This year I are been mainly plantin' Alfalfa and lupin mixture."        Cheers,    Tony.

[JENIAN]

Ian,


As a green manure what would the difference be between Barley and Wheat?  Would one be better than the other and for what reason?


Iain

Sorry Iain I have no idea, but was told to use Barley as it was 'used in the good old days of Yore as a green manure'
I've used it for about 3yrs with no complaints.  I strim the Barley down, leave for a couple of days, then dig in.

Ian

[Jeannine]

Winter wheat will not die off, the germinated seeds lay dormant in frosty soils and burst into life in the spring


Oats will be killed bt frost

 Winter Rye will overwinter,then burst into life again in Spring

Ryegrass will be killed by frosts

Alfalfa os marginally winter hardy

Clovers stay dormant and regorw in the Spring
 
Legumes like field peas and fava beans will overwinter.

I don't know about barley but it is usually spring or summer sown as a crop so supect it will be frost killed.

XX Jeannine