Topic: Bottling your own fruit

[BarriedaleNick]

Although I appreciate the information I have never waterbathed or boiled my jars after filling them.  I use old jam jars, pickle jars as does everyone I know - so apparently we are doing it all wrong.  However my jams always last for years and never get mold on them and I never  get ill.  Maybe we are all lucky or maybe different methods work just as well.

The posibility of botulism is overplayed..Since 1989 there have been 33 cases of food-borne botulism in England and Wales  -  27 of those cases were a single outbreak caused by contaminated hazelnut yoghurt. 

[Melbourne12]

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The posibility of botulism is overplayed..Since 1989 there have been 33 cases of food-borne botulism in England and Wales  -  27 of those cases were a single outbreak caused by contaminated hazelnut yoghurt. 

Indeed.  And of the other 6, only one outbreak was caused by home bottling - mushrooms bottled in oil (brought back to England by a family visiting Italian relatives).  Two people were affected, one died, the other recovered.

Two other cases were caused by home-cured sausage or pork brought back from Poland.  One was blamed on houmus (unconfirmed) and one was unknown but contracted in Georgia.

So you're right on the botulism risk.  But there are many other microbial sources of poisoning that may not be fatal but are nonetheless unpleasant.  It's reckoned that at least 50% and up to 95% of food poisoning cases go unreported.

Even if the result of eating badly preserved food is just a gippy tummy, why give yourself the problem?

And besides which, properly and hygienically made preserves are just so much better in appearance and taste.

[BarriedaleNick]

I agree with what you say Melbourne and am always intersted in other ways of doing things.  If it makes better preserves then I'll happily use other methods - Im just not totally convinced. 

Anyone know if there is any scientific research on this matter?

[Melbourne12]

...
Anyone know if there is any scientific research on this matter?

The USDA is really the best source (as per Jeannine's link).  They include on their website a scientific literature review here http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/usda/review/content.htm from which you can get references to the original research papers.

[BarriedaleNick]

Cheers - Plenty to read there if you click through.

[Jeannine]

Again I say..buy the book in the UK called Putting Foods By, it is completely thorough, is less than 10 quid and will keep you safe and well informed.Amazon has it.

Barrie, no there are not other ways that work, the UK is uneducated on this so they cling to what they know,,the US Dept Agriculture keeps a very up to date site on the  subject, the UK government does not..however, if methods that keep your family safe are available why not use them..why even take the risk. Kids are more vulnerable, this is what folks are putting at risk.

It is typical UK to sneer at the US advice, we hear it all the time..but I am English and I have seen a group of kids who got sick at a birthday party after eating incorrectly preserved jams that were used in a cake. It was not a pretty site and I swear I am telling you the truth..this is the risk.So it has never happened to you, it has happened to Melbourne's family.



Botulism is the top of the heap for nasties and is usually caused by veggies, fish or meat but molds are capable of all kinds of trouble,why feed it to kids. Mold can be in jams that one  cannot  see with the eye,so you cannot say you have never had mold, you have just never seen mold, that is not the same thing.

I cannot begin to share with you how scary it makes me feel when I read things like that, I know the dangers, you simply do not, so I am scared for you and your family.

I don't want to be rude.Don't take my word for it, ignore Melbourne by all means but educate yourself.

XX Jeannine

[BarriedaleNick]

Jeannine,

Im not ignoring Melbourne or indeed you and I am not uneducated  ;)..
I understand perfectly what you are saying and I understand the dangers - I just think that they are minimal and the risk very very small.
I am almost completely unconcerned about the risk of botulism
I have a few preserving books and they give different advise - I am not after more preserving books - What I would like to see are comparative studies of preserving techniques carried out under rigorous conditions.
I will try to get time to read the studies behind the US gov site (I dont trust any political advice unless there is good science behind it) and I am more than willing to change my mind and the way I make jam if there is compelling evidence.

BTW I don't really have a family - its just me and the OH and she hates Jam!!

[Duke Ellington]

Whenever this topic comes up on here I am always confused by it.
Regarding the risk of botulism.....
Are we talking about bottling vegetables meat and fruits?
Are we including jam in this?
I understand the risks when bottling vegetables, meats and fruits and that bottling these three items has become unfashionable in the UK.  This why I believe we have little information on it. Thank you Jeannine for giving us the information on this subject.  I have no doubt that you have a great understanding and a lot of knowledge when it comes to preserving.

Personally I throw away any home made preserve that develops mould.
With regard to making jams without the final stage of a hot water bath.....
My friends and family have made jam without the hot bath method for years and I have never been aware of sickness from jam due to botulism. Of course the victims may have died after putting the evidence back in the cupboard. Are we in the UK just lucky?
I hope Barridale gets back to us once he has researched this subject.
Like Barridale I would like more information.
Our government obviously doesn't recognize the risk?
BTW...I have bought PUTTING FOODS BY for £3.24 on amazon
Duke

[mat]

The USofA may feel the UK is uneducated, but I am afraid I do not trust all of the US advice either... I will not buy US Beef, as it has been pumped with steroids...  And the amount of chemicals used on their crops is horrifying.

The US is often over precautious.  Look at the story a few days ago where a US reservoir was emptied and wasted because a man was seen peeing into it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  This was a WHOLE reservoir.  Urine is normally sterile.  The concentration of one human pee in a reservoir is almost unmeasurable... I bet the concentration of bird poo in there would have been far higher!!!

I am afraid I am going to carry on buying/making home made jams made the "old fashioned" way.

I agree, when bottling veg and meat, it's a different matter, but not fruit in syrup and certainly not jams.

The UK haven't bothered to revise their advice yet on jams and fruit bottling in http://www.amazon.co.uk/Preservation-Fruit-Vegetables-Fish-Agriculture/dp/0112428649/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309472026&sr=8-1 and still supply this doc!!!  (I have a copy somewhere)

[Jeannine]

Each to their own I guess, but I try..

 Duke,Great you bought the book, I do hope you bought the updated 2010 one as I said in my earlier post, the earlier one is obsolete now. Re botulism, yes it is usually in meat, fish and veggies but it can show up in any low acid food given the right conditions, which is why figs are very vulnerable and tomatoes are right on the edge. The usual problem with even high acid fruits and jams is mold and what mold can bring, but it is very easy to protect yourself. It takes more care, more outlay financially and you can't cut corners or be lazy all of which are reasons why some folks don't bother.That I know to be a fact as I have been told so may times from folks who used to do it the old way.

I have the English publication shown on Amazon, it is way out of date which is what I said in my earlier post UK dept of Ag is not updating so is way behind.

I can't speak for the whole of the USA re the education generally of the UK folk but I do know and I am English and that as far as food preservation is concerned they certainly  are poorly informed ,some out of ignorance (as in don't know) and some out of misguided bravado .I was one of them till I studied the subject, took college courses and learnt all the angles and will gladly admit it.I knew diddly and could well have made my family ill. I feel now I am very well educated on the subject and I have taught many  classes on preserving. I would call that educated and feel I am in a good position to be able to pass it on rather than..."this is the way I have always done it and I am not dead!!"

If I wanted to know how to grow spuds or garlic I would ask someone who knew a lot about it not someone who couldn't recognise late blight or didn't know what kind of ground they needed and I would be more than happy to learn from them. If I was in a situation where the manure on my site was contaminated I wouldn't;t carry on using it because so far the effects hadn't hit me yet. I would listen to someone who had read and had the experience I clearly lacked. I simply would not take the chance, no matter how small it was, I wouldn't;t take the risk with myself and perhaps more important with my family who trust me to make their food safe. Most of us wouldn't.

Yet every year I hear the same comments, eventually the UK Dept of Ag will wake up, a certain lady chef will stop using out of date methods and perhaps most importantly folks who have never preserved will find out how to do so before they start and then keep up with the changes.

You know every year I stick my head out on this subject to try to help those who don't know.The whole reason for my posting is to get to those folks who are new to this and at least open their minds to investigation. If one person reading this is sufficiently interested to learn modern food preservation I have done a good job,despite the discomfort that it always brings to me. I can do nothing for the others..sadly.

XX Jeannine

[Mrs Gumboot]

Jeannine, can I just says thanks for continually sticking your neck out on this one! I've bottled fruits and jams in a bit of a haphazard way over the last couple of years and since I've got a pretty strong constitution I've never worried too much. Now having a baby in the house has made me really stop and think about the fact that I'm playing russian roulette with our health. Going down to the basement to throw whatever's left down there away!

Will have a look through your links & do things properly when I do the next bottling session.  :)

[Jeannine]

Thank you Mrs Gumboot, you are very kind sometimes I don't reply as I get so much flack but feel I should.

Don't be put off, it really is easy to do it without worries. Getting the right jars is perhaps a number one need, we found when over there they were very expensive which is a pity but I truly feel that if folks begin to use them more the cost will come down. We found that one of the spaghetti sauces used a proper "mason" jar and I had the two piece lids sent over from the US to fit them so we were OK,,mind you we ate a lot of spaghetti that first year. I think they changed the jar though, you could check , it was Bertolli and was in a square jar, it had mason and the usual fluid ounces marks right on it.

I don't mind sending the caps and lids over if folks cannot find them. Here the whole thing, jars, caps and lids only cost about $7 dollars a dozen sadly too heavy to post, and id the UK catches up with preserving I think they will be cheap there too.

Good luck with your preserving, the book I suggest is truly excellent but please get the new updates version however   if you can handle the printing ink cost you can print off the whole of the USDA book for free, It is about 2 inches thick.and will tell you everything you need to know.

Thank you again

XX Jeannine

[goodlife]

It is worth it buying jars straight from manufacture/importer in bulk if you use more than dozen jars in a year. They are not that expensive neither..perharps the delivery is the bit more expensive part of it...but if two or three people share the order then its not bad at all.
I buy honey jars in bulk..and just to give some idea what those cost they are about £40-£50 per gross..that about 140 odd jars with lids...and when you buy straight from the source..usually you can buy spare lids as well. So in future you only need to replace the lids which is around £10-£15 for that amount of jars.
Obviously prices differ depending a jar..but those prices give some sort of idea of the cost.
 

[goodlife]

here is one company I've bought jars from..http://www.bottlecompanysouth.co.uk/index.html

[Duke Ellington]

I collected those pasta sauce jars and I am about to get rid of them because the lids needs replacing.
They are square  and have an embossed tomato design on one side and bertolli running upwards next to thefluid marks. I do think the jar has now changed. I will try to track down some lids here. I saved those Bertolli jars because I thought they looked rustic, :)

[Jeannine]

Goodlife, just a point.If buying jars with lids bear in mine that those with plastic lids will not stand the procedure for most canning and the glass is not the same as the KIlner/Mason jars.

There are several companies in the UK now that offer the Kilner two piece snap lid and even the imported Ball ones, both will go right up to pressure canningThey are currently costing about 22 sterling a dozen with the two piece lids,m replacement caps for lids are about 3 sterling for a dozen.

I realise that this is expensive if you need a lot but I would not advise going to the cheaper plastic lid ones.

I use about 20 dozen or so in a season usually, sometimes more so buy them on sale when I can. I gave away this amount in the UK before we left,,we did offer them free for pick up on A4A but no takers.

There are companies in the US that will ship to the UK but the shipping cost may be high,.but the jars will be cheap so it may work.

Someone needs to go on Amazon.com and see what the shipping is to send a dozen jars to the UK. I can't do it from this endT.hey may not ship.

The names you need to be looking for are Kilner, Ball, Mason,  or Ball Mason, all with 2 piece lids.

The honey jars sold in the UK do not go to the heat needed and the tops are not correct.

XX Jeannine

[Jeannine]

Duke...DO NOT GET RID OF THOSE JARS.. send me a picture.

The screw lid on the jar is no good to reuse but if it is the same one as it used to be, the two piece US lid is what you need, I will send you some.

If it is the original jar, the lid will be about 3/4 inch deep, if it is the newer one it will much shallower. The screw parts on the glass are deeper on the old jar.

Once you get the two piece lids, the screw ring can be used for year, the caps have to be replaced but the kilner caps will fit. Once your food is fully sealed and cooled, you can remove the screw ring, the cap will not come off, so you don't need as many rings as you have jars .If they are hard to find  you can get away with just a few.

If you can get mne a picture of the jar I can tell you if it is the original one.

XX Jeannine

[goodlife]

I just had a look couple of sites selling jars..and most of the jam jars are sold with metal lids..and as for prices..jam jars are for some reason sligtly cheaper than honey jars.  ???
Note..just to make clear..I don't use honey jars for jam..it was just price example what jars cost.
I haven't looked for jam jars myself before as I don't need them..but now that I have looked I noticed that you can buy lids for most of the jars that you find in shops.
Jeannine..wouldn't those metal lids with pop up centre take the canning procedure..?..well any metal lid that is meant for jam jars  ???
I didn't come across any plastic lids for pickling or jam jars....

[goodlife]

here is example for those lids..would those do for proper 'canning'?
http://www.jarsandbottles-store.co.uk/index.php/glass-jar-lids.html

[goodlife]

Kilner jars and and spare lids..those two part lids too.. ;D ;)
http://www.jamjarshop.com/buy/kilnerpreservingjars/?catid=46