Topic: Access to council minutes

[Unwashed]

Another installment of the saga of my fight to keep my plot.

The story so far:  Newbury Town Council forfeited my tenancy last April because I didn't pay an unenforceable rent increase.  The May deadline came and went without them doing anything.  Then they extended the notice to December.  Again, deadline came and went.  Then they let me discuss the issue with their solicitor, and after that they held an emergency council meeting.  After that they withdrew the notice of forfeiture, but gave me a Notice to Quit April 2012 instead.  I've just paid the same rent again this year as last year and the year before that.

I need to see the minutes of the sub-committee so I can see why they withdrew the forfeiture and why they decided to give me a notice to quit, because it's difficult to challenge the fairness of the Notice to Quit without the minutes - it's the minutes that create the legal authority for the council to act.

So I've asked the council for the minutes, and under S.228 Local Government Act 1972 I believe they must give me a copy, but they have refused.  So I've asked the police if they enforce the offence.

Anyone have any ideas?  information Commissioner doesn't think it's her, and as it's a parish council I don't think it's going to be the local government ombudsman, and i don't think it's the county council either, but it doesn't sound like the kind of thing the police would get involved with.  Any ideas?

[rog_pete]

you could try a Freedom of Information Act request to them
maybe??

[BAK]

Unwashed,

I believe that ultimately it is the local government ombudsman although they do not want to get involved until all other avenues have been exhausted. See this page ...

http://www.lgo.org.uk/publications/fact-sheets/complaints-about-parish-councils/ ... particularly the section on how to complain.

As to the minutes themselves. cynically I would be very surprised if they were particularly enlightening. I have seldom seen any minutes that provide clear evidence of what was said and how a decision was finally reached ... at least not when experienced minute takers are used. None of which is to say that you should not try!

[djbrenton]

You could always look here

http://www.newbury.gov.uk/minutes09/

http://www.newbury.gov.uk/minutes10/

http://www.newbury.gov.uk/minutes11/


Although it looks to me like any discussion happened after exclusion of press and public and is therefore not in the minutes as shown.

http://www.newbury.gov.uk/minutes10/minutespr100512.pdf

for example

[Unwashed]

Hi rog_pete, I have made a written request and that automatically brings it within the FoI.  The significance of S.228 is that the Council is under a statutory duty to provide a true copy of the minutes on demand, and not to do so is an offence quite independently of the FoI.  I will make a complaint to the Information Commissioner, but if the Council continue to ignore my request to review their decision to refuse I have to wait a couple of months before I can make that complaint.  I want to find out who prosecutes for the offence under S.228.

Hi BAK, the LGO doesn't get involved with parish councils, though I might give them a ring as ask. Edit: They confirm, it's not them.

Hi DJB, I want the minutes of the emergency sub-committee on 10 February, and those minutes are not published on the Council's web site.  The press and public were excluded from the meeting, but S.228 obliges parish councils to publish the minutes without redaction, only a primary council can remove exempt information from the minutes for publication under S.100C.

Thanks too for my PM, I'm very grateful.

[Bill Door]

Hi Unwashed.  I have had a look on line and the community services minutes in December 2010 seem to be still in draft and may not have been approved so they are in effect not available.  Perhaps you should as the council Clerk if they have been agreed and when they will be available on-line. (Sorry if they are agreed but i didn't see them).

On another point I am wondering whether you will get the result you want anyway.  For instance I think you should probably be asking for the minutes of the Stewards meetings.  You might need to ask for the services teams reports to the committee.  I am not sure whether you can ask for those but I would start small on that and then go for the biggy when you get what you first ask for.  Sometimes with councils you need to get the absolute useless item to prove that there is no reason why you can't have the very interesting item.  So ask for a report to another "Team" within the council to a committee.  There are plenty of them about.

On another note how come Marion Fenn is seemingly not helpful?

I also saw a few Section 106 payments, might be an idea to look at the planning agreements and see if any impinge on the allotments.  Unlikely i know but worth a shot.

Best of Luck

Bill

[Unwashed]

Hi Bill

Hi Unwashed.  I have had a look on line and the community services minutes in December 2010 seem to be still in draft and may not have been approved so they are in effect not available.  Perhaps you should as the council Clerk if they have been agreed and when they will be available on-line. (Sorry if they are agreed but i didn't see them).

The minutes I want are those for the emergency sub committee on the 10 February.  They were approved at the recent Full Council meeting.  The Council don't put sub-committee minutes on their web site.  I have asked the Council for the minutes and the Council have refused because the press and public were excluded from the meeting.

On another point I am wondering whether you will get the result you want anyway.  For instance I think you should probably be asking for the minutes of the Stewards meetings.  You might need to ask for the services teams reports to the committee.  I am not sure whether you can ask for those but I would start small on that and then go for the biggy when you get what you first ask for.  Sometimes with councils you need to get the absolute useless item to prove that there is no reason why you can't have the very interesting item.  So ask for a report to another "Team" within the council to a committee.  There are plenty of them about.

On another note how come Marion Fenn is seemingly not helpful?

I also saw a few Section 106 payments, might be an idea to look at the planning agreements and see if any impinge on the allotments.  Unlikely i know but worth a shot.

Best of Luck

Bill

It's not the steward's meeting (for which the minutes are available), it's the sub-committee that made the decision to withdraw my forfeiture for arrears and instead serve a Notice to Quit.  It's the sub-committee that has legal authority to serve the Notice to Quit and the minutes evidence that decision and that's why I need to see them.

I believe it to be a criminal offence to refuse to supply the minutes and I have brought the matter to the attention of the police.

I have no right to the supporting documents.

[nodig]

If the council have been unreasonable (and it sounds that they have) threaten to sue them at County Court for the cost to you of finding and using an alternative allotment (travel costs by taxi 7 days a week for example) for the next 10 years.

At court they would be required to produce the documentary evidence that they are witholding from you at the moment (their reasons for the notice to quit).

Good luck anyway.

Nodig

[jimtheworzel]

BLOODY HELL!! its you AGAIN, GO AWAY

[nodig]

Unwashed

if you have to go down the unlawful eviction route (we are secure tenants after all aren't we?) this is the best I can find on the web

http://doughtystreet.co.uk/files/110308%20-%20Unlawful%20Eviction%20-%20materials.pdf

Nodig

[Digeroo]

If there is nothing in the minutes then why are they withholding them? If there is nothing interesting in them and they are withholding them they are simply winding you up.

This will give you a laugh

http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/transparency/

http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/transparency/transparencyguidance/

quote from code of practice

council minutes and papers: consistent publication of what is being discussed and what has been decided

[Unwashed]

If there is nothing in the minutes then why are they withholding them?

Exactly.  I believe that the minutes will show that the Council recognise the unenforcability of the rent increase.  There is no other possible reason to withold the minutes other than the Council having something to hide.

This is a link to a site that claims the mentmore parish clerk was given a police caution and required to resign for refusing to provide a copy of parish minutes.