Author Topic: Shredder Paper  (Read 5122 times)

Vinlander

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2011, 23:29:17 »
the toxins in paper waste might well be acceptable to the EU but you have to decide if they are acceptable to you - you need to make an informed decision beyond what the powers that be tell us, in my not so humble opinion  ;D - if you care about what goes into your vegetables and fruit and then ultimately in you then you need to do your research

Yes that's true, but there are qualified (even slightly paranoid) experts in the organic movement who are prepared to accept them.

Inks from pre-80s newspapers were considered safe by the organic movement of the time - when it was still massively more scientific than the dogma taught by the 'modern' agriculture at the time.

Inks have got better and even colour ones no longer use toxic metals like lead and cadmium - they are synthetic dyes like other modern dyes.

The recent scare about mineral oils (from inks) in recycled card concerned direct contact to food products (almost certainly ready to eat/cook) and contact through permeable plastic film/bags.

Your primary line of defence against all the nasty things in soil (rotting manure! rotting bugs! terpenes! purines! anthrax! legionella!) is the power of living bugs to break it down, and the power of vegetables to extract the useful stuff and keep the toxins out.

The main toxin that soil bugs can't protect you from is lead from paint flakes or C20th car exhausts - and even then humus (in large quantities) is capable of locking it away.



Dyes work by interacting with light - almost by definition this means they are highly reactive and quickly decompose in any soil.

All oils are full of energy and are therefore food for any bug that can cope with them - just because they are toxic to us (like crude oil) doesn't mean something in the ecosystem isn't just itching to munch them up (like in the Gulf of Mexico).

If we aren't prepared to give reasonable credence to experts that are already 'on our side' then we are in danger of moving to a position where filling a dead cow horn with manure is magically more 'healthful' than mixing manure with hoof & horn meal.

Then the 'alternative health' quacks rub their hands together and 'see you coming' - before we know it we'll be buying manure that's been blessed by an alternative priest...

Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 23:51:23 by Vinlander »
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

saddad

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2011, 07:42:54 »
Welcome to A4A Slugcrusher... you are in good company there..  ;D

aquilegia

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2011, 07:51:35 »
My 3 year old and I have great fun tearing up our cardboard and newspapers to add to the compost. I found it worked really well when mixed with grass clippings and last summer for the first time ever my compost actually got hot! The worms seem to love the paper too.

I also soak card and paper and put in the bottom of pots, potato and bean trenches to retain moisture.
gone to pot :D

calendula

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2011, 09:33:22 »
@ Vinlander - I can get very interested in almost anything in the soil that has a purpose and a natural need to be there for whatever reason, fit for purpose so to speak, what I don't care for is the unnatural and that includes my runner beans soaking up toxic inks and folks on boxes spouting on about the safety of toxins and you have to remember that even the collective organic experts are hugely varied in their dogma - I like bugs, not too keen on radioactivity though  ;D

Vinlander

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2011, 00:46:50 »
@ Vinlander - I can get very interested in almost anything in the soil that has a purpose and a natural need to be there for whatever reason, fit for purpose so to speak, what I don't care for is the unnatural and that includes my runner beans soaking up toxic inks and folks on boxes spouting on about the safety of toxins and you have to remember that even the collective organic experts are hugely varied in their dogma - I like bugs, not too keen on radioactivity though  ;D

I can understand that, and it's certainly safe to avoid anything that isn't naturally in the soil - but you could be even safer - where do you draw the line between reason and obsession?

Plastic ties aren't OK? pots made from anything except wood and string? anything that has metallic iron? nails, poles? - until they rust, when they magically become fine - presumably?

I think my view is balanced - whether or not you agree...

There is a range of views in the middle ground, but at the extremes there are certainly as many paid propagandists to the commercial side of me as there are eco/alternative/spirit/homeopathic type flannel/wafflers on the other.

I personally try very hard to avoid any new molecules that by definition haven't been around long enough to be understood - depending on how complex they are, that means between 100 and 1000 years.

I'd like to avoid all the pseudo-oestrogens we are bombarded with in PET bottles and the like (they worry me 100x more than copper or derris) - but it is very difficult to do that and still live in this century (or the last).

If the molecules are designed to kill something - anything - then they are 100x as frightening and if they are designed to be persistent in the environment (most) they are 100x as frightening again.

If they end up actually on my food (as opposed to around the roots) then 100x more frightening again.

This makes all modern pest/fungi/herbicides between 1 million and 100 million times as frightening as reactive inks and mineral oils (to my poor brain at least).

The question is how much paranoia gives benefits (like in Catch 22) and where diminishing returns cut in.

I certainly can't answer that question - but the more we know about who is on our side (like most bugs and some pundits) and who really isn't (like absolutely anyone who sells you stuff - or thinks they might) - the less time spent watching our feet miss the cracks in the pavement and the more time spent enjoying the big picture.

Cheers.

PS. Radiation is a relatively non-complex threat to health. Before you start worrying too much about low level radiation you should check out 'hormesis'. And even at high levels it needs to be pointed out that Chernobyl is expected to kill 4000 people before their time (a lot less have died to date) whereas the recent tsunami definitely has killed a lot more already - maybe 20x more when the tally is finished. The  Fukushima plant - horrible as it is and getting worse - is still very very unlikely to match Chernobyl, and very very unlikely to be more than a blip on the overall catastrophe - unless you are a journalist who gets more kicks from 'bigging' a small story than reporting a huge one straight.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 01:07:04 by Vinlander »
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

calendula

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 09:23:26 »
I think your worry about paranoia is, well, paranoia itself - you should work for the government - ooh perhaps you do  ;D

Vinlander

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2011, 00:26:41 »
I think your worry about paranoia is, well, paranoia itself - you should work for the government - ooh perhaps you do  ;D

That's a laugh! If you read this thread along with my other posts you will find I generally advocate extreme scepticism to the edge of paranoia (is there such a thing as euparanoia? - there should be - as in Catch-22) - but only about government's most sacred cow - absolutely anything that makes money.

I've recently cast nasturtiums (or at least doubts) at government regulatory departments over pesticides etc.

I advocate tolerance and inclusiveness towards those (who despite their odd views and superstitions) are doing the right thing - even if their reasons are flaky and I can't resist taking the p!$$.

I do get exasperated if people don't listen to the sensible end of the organic movement (that's the one that thinks biodynamics is well-meaning bunk). That means they are missing the big picture - like the chain-smoking character in Frazier who chides a pastry cook saying "there's white sugar in them - I won't touch it - that's stuff's pure poison".

I suspect you are basing your own paranoia on one footnote - just because I'm not screaming the house down about radiation risk (in this time of much worse problems & much worse risks) - does that make me a government agent? Me and James Lovelock?

LOL and happy dreams.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

saddad

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Re: Shredder Paper
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2011, 07:48:40 »
I'm not a Government agent, I'm a free agent (well out of work....)  ::)

 

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