Topic: What does the council have to provide?

[Davidberry]

Hi All,

I've just got a new plot on a site in Leeds.  The site was previously abandoned 7-8 years ago due to vandalism.  The council have promised to put fencing up on the 2 short sides of the site, one side is already adequately fenced and the final long side has a hedge with holes big enough to drive a car through!  The site has been relaunched with lots of enthusiastic new members, but we all have concerns about vandalism in the future.

I have two questions.

1.  What is the council obliged to provide in terms of securing the site from vandals, and providing other facilities such as manure and most importantly water ? (the previous water system was also vandalised.)

2.  If the council are under no obligation to provide adequate fencing around the whole site (which I suspect they are not) what success have people had in finding funding/grants to pay for fencing to secure the site? 

[tonybloke]

Hi All,

I've just got a new plot on a site in Leeds.  The site was previously abandoned 7-8 years ago due to vandalism.  The council have promised to put fencing up on the 2 short sides of the site, one side is already adequately fenced and the final long side has a hedge with holes big enough to drive a car through!  The site has been relaunched with lots of enthusiastic new members, but we all have concerns about vandalism in the future.

I have two questions.

1.  What is the council obliged to provide in terms of securing the site from vandals, and providing other facilities such as manure and most importantly water ? (the previous water system was also vandalised.)

2.  If the council are under no obligation to provide adequate fencing around the whole site (which I suspect they are not) what success have people had in finding funding/grants to pay for fencing to secure the site? 

councils aren't obliged to provide manure / compost!!
nor are they obliged to provide water.

r.e. hedges / fencing, again, no obligation.

have you considered asking the council about self-management? then you could apply for grants for security, water supply etc.

[Trevor_D]

As Tony says, all they have to do is provide the land. But I'm sure that a lot of councils - if they can afford it! - try to put in more than that. In our Borough they have a sliding scale of charges to reflect things like secure fencing, car parking, toilets, etc.

I also agree that you might (should?) be looking at self-management, because then you can take the initiative. However, some words of warning: look very carefully at exactly what grants are given for, and in most cases they are to provide what isn't there, rather than upgrade or repair what already is.

A few years ago our site was rather run-down and we applied for two lottery grants. The first was to upgrade the water supply: what was there only covered half the site, was a mis-mash of imperial and metric, and was constantly needing repair. However, they couldn't give us one as we already had a water system!

The second grant was for a fence along the main road. The existing boundary was a 100-year-old hawthorne hedge which had seen better days and was no deterrent to vandals. So we planned to have it professionally laid and restored, which is why we needed a fence until it was back to full height. The Lottery people thought it a marvellous project, but unfortunately couldn't fund a fence as we already had a hedge! (They did see the Catch-22 element, and apologised!)

So we got working parties together and did the lot ourselves, not quite as professionally as a Lottery grant would have allowed, but they work! (The water is still on-going, as we open up new plots.) Then we put in a car park. And then we renovated the main drainage trench through the middle of the site (mainly by hand).

So when we applied for funding for a composting toilet - which we didn't have - they gave us a grant. Mainly, I realise, because of all the other work we'd done to the site, plus all the outreach work with local schools and the community.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a mini-essay on the way forward for allotments in the 21st century! But you get my gist? In the current economic climate, councils can't spend masses of money on allotments, even if they actually want to. But if there are enough of you on your site willing to put the effort in, you can work wonders.

[Davidberry]

I must admit it was wishful thinking on my part that the council would provide all of that!!!! 

There seems little point in resurrecting the site if it's going to be hit by the same problem of vandalism that closed it last time.  We need to work out a way of getting the fencing completed on the long side of the site to ensure that we can be relatively vandal free. 

The long side is about 300 metres so it's going to be too expensive for the 40 or so members to fund themselves (I'm guessing about £13,500 fully installed).

[tonybloke]

I must admit it was wishful thinking on my part that the council would provide all of that!!!! 

There seems little point in resurrecting the site if it's going to be hit by the same problem of vandalism that closed it last time.  We need to work out a way of getting the fencing completed on the long side of the site to ensure that we can be relatively vandal free. 

The long side is about 300 metres so it's going to be too expensive for the 40 or so members to fund themselves (I'm guessing about £13,500 fully installed).

where in the UK are you?

[jules2]

The only time our council recognised our existence is when they said they would help us apply for grants in other words get someone else's money.

What they didn't mention were S 137 grants which amount to roughly £6 for every parishioner but which come out of the councils budget.

In 2009 they had an income of £452,000 and paid not a penny out in grants despite having £304,000 in assets, this is a council that has just raised allotment rents for pensioners by 600%

[gp.girl]

I must admit it was wishful thinking on my part that the council would provide all of that!!!! 

There seems little point in resurrecting the site if it's going to be hit by the same problem of vandalism that closed it last time.  We need to work out a way of getting the fencing completed on the long side of the site to ensure that we can be relatively vandal free. 

The long side is about 300 metres so it's going to be too expensive for the 40 or so members to fund themselves (I'm guessing about £13,500 fully installed).

£40 per metre seems a bit expensive to me or am I being stingy?

Good luck with the allotment though  :)

[Unwashed]

Hi All,

I've just got a new plot on a site in Leeds.  The site was previously abandoned 7-8 years ago due to vandalism.  The council have promised to put fencing up on the 2 short sides of the site, one side is already adequately fenced and the final long side has a hedge with holes big enough to drive a car through!  The site has been relaunched with lots of enthusiastic new members, but we all have concerns about vandalism in the future.

You're gardeners, right?  Grow a hedge! :-\

[lottie lou]

What about brambles along the side with the holes in the hedge - nice prickly ones

[tonybloke]

bare-root hawthorn whips, enough for a double row ( proper job) should cost less than 300 quid
http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/Quickthorn-Hawthorn-Bushes-Hedge-Packs

[kt.]

The more you ask the council to provide - the more your rents will increase in future years.  Grants or self management are the way ahead as previously stated.  The less the council do, the less scope they have to argue for high rents.

[Ellen K]

Pyracantha - now there's a nice friendly fence reinforcing plant.

The birds love their berries which also help blend any blood from its thorns.

[tonybloke]

not as long-lived as hawthorn, though

[Unwashed]

hawthorn - or quickthorn - was the hedge of choice in the enclosure period for very good reason.

[saddad]

You need to contact your regional rep/mentor for the "Allotments Regeneration Initiative" I don't have contact details to hand but if you google it you will get a result. As it says on the box they are there to help regenerate allotment sites...
 :)

[lavenderlux]

On my site, the fact that we have a strong and active committee and also working parties to carry out improvement/maintenance has helped us when we have applied for grants.
Your local councillor may get a 'locality grant' to spend on capital projects in his/her area - it probably wouldn't be able to be used for a hedge (as one is there already) but it could help with other things - and having a good working team spirit is something our councillor looked for when he gave us a grant.
It might be worth you contacting him/her

[Ellen K]

I agree, the 2 short sides with no fence at all, a hawthorn fence would be the way to go.

I have a problem with the fence at the bottom of my plot: it is the standard council 8 ft concrete posts with that square wire mesh stuff and it was cut several times last year to gain entry to the site.  There is a wonky path down the side of the site and at my plot it comes right up to the fence so it's a obvious place to cut.  There is litter and lager cans on the path and stuff gets thrown over to my plot (I found a 1 ml syringe and needle amongst other things) so it's a meeting place and also an observation point.  I am trying to acquire additional wire mesh pieces to make it more difficult to cut and also planting climbing roses.  We've asked for a repair from the council (it's their fence) but nothing has happened.

What I am trying to say is that even if you get the council to fork out oodles of dosh for a fence, if you have vandals with wire cutters it won't be fully effective.  There is a lot more to it than trying to get the council to do something, even if you are on a site which is administered entirely by the council.  But I agree with what you say, unless you can repel vandals, it won't work just like it didn't work last time.

[Unwashed]

DV, plant blackthorn, it's impenetrable.

[argali]

You need to contact your regional rep/mentor for the "Allotments Regeneration Initiative" I don't have contact details to hand but if you google it you will get a result. As it says on the box they are there to help regenerate allotment sites...
 :)

 As Saddad said this is a good site found here http://www.farmgarden.org.uk/ari/home

 I think looking for grants and other fundraising initiatives would be the way to go.  Best of luck.