Topic: Discrimination Issues

[Ellen K]

^^ my interpretation of what I have read here is that marcitos wants the committee to change his tenancy agreement to omit maintenance of the hedge on the grounds of his disability.  We've heard they maintain other hedges and they may have been no reason why thy would not have helped out with this one - after all they have equipment.  But they wont amend his tenancy. 

Marcitos, is that right?

As DJ indicates, if someone falls ill you go light on the rules and help them out but you don't rewrite their tenancy to say they don't have to do any weeding.  Sorry, mate but I don't think it is going to get anywhere.

[Unwashed]

^^ my interpretation of what I have read here is that marcitos wants the committee to change his tenancy agreement to omit maintenance of the hedge on the grounds of his disability.  We've heard they maintain other hedges and they may have been no reason why thy would not have helped out with this one - after all they have equipment.  But they wont amend his tenancy. 

Marcitos, is that right?

As DJ indicates, if someone falls ill you go light on the rules and help them out but you don't rewrite their tenancy to say they don't have to do any weeding.  Sorry, mate but I don't think it is going to get anywhere.

That's how I understand it too DV.  The important distinction here is that marcitos is perfectly capable of maintaining her allotment.  However, her DDA-qualifying disability makes it impossible for her to maintain the adjacent site hedge, a condition of her tenancy.  The DDA requires the service provider to make reasonable adjustments to the provision of their service in these circumstances, and as the committee are demonstrably able to cut the hedge themselves then in the circumstances a reasonable adjustment would be to strike the hedge-maintenance condition from her tenancy agreement.  Simples.

Come on peeps, can it possibly be right to evict an otherwise capable fellow allotmenteer just because she has a gammy hand?  Who of us wouldn't happily do the hedge for her anyways?  Of course it's not right, and the committee have seriously missed the point if they think it could ever be so.  Take the hedge rule out of the agreement for everyone and cut the hedge with a working party - one that has been trained in hedge maintenance.

[djbrenton]

 Who of us wouldn't happily do the hedge for her anyways? 

Thats the point I keep making. People have offered to cut the hedge but marcitos seems determined to try and force a volunteer committee member to do it instead. My attitude to life is, first look to yourself to fulfill your responsibilities, then look to your family and friends. Only if those avenues fail should you look to the wider world.

[elvis2003]

who mentioned eviction?

[Unwashed]

who mentioned eviction?

It is the implied consequence of breaching a term of the tenancy agreement - why else make it a term of the agreement?

[elvis2003]

quite,but it hasnt been mentioned in this case so lets stick to the details

[SMP1704]

It seems to me that Marcitos feels unfairly treated as other plotholders hedges have been trimmed by the Committee and funds are available and used for all manner of site improvements - Is that right M?

TBH I think I might feel the same in that situation.  Can you tell us why your complaints to the committee and the LA failed?  Did you mention DDA requirements?  I don't think the LA can wriggle out of their responsibilities simply by saying that day to day management responsibilities have passed to the self management committee - they are still the landowner/leaseholder.

I wonder what it is about the other plotholder who had their hedge trimmed?  Friends of committee? Their demeanour and approach to the committee?

In an ideal world you would not have this issue, the hedge would be trimmed and life would be good and then there is real life, where it is necessary to deal with the arrogant and obdurate.  I recognise that you are standing up for a principle but as other posters have said allotmenting should be about enjoyment.  At some point it may be necessary for your sanity to recognise that the committee will not trim the hedge (fair, reasonable or not) and do it with friends - what about a hedge trimming party? If the committee will not provide specific guidelines for how the hedge should be trimmed, do what seems reasonable.  The other option is to carry on fighting, stand for election to the committee and influence from the inside.

[Ellen K]

It's standard in allotment tenancies that you are obliged to maintain hedges and to keep paths clear.  If you can't do it, you can either seek help or just pay for someone else to do it.  And it seems that for Marcitos, help is readily available.  

Nobody could argue successfully that a disability gives them a right to have their tenancy altered.  That is not how the system works.  Help is available but Marcitos seems to want to insist the tenancy is altered.  Well, it might work but I wouldn't bet on it.

[Unwashed]

Marcitos confirmed that she was obliged by a term of her tenancy agreement to cut the hedge.  Without this obligation and it's consequence her argument has no merit.  As it is she is evicted if she doesn't maintain the hedge, and because of her disability she can't maintain the hedge, but the DDA obliges the committee to make reasonable adjustments in just these circumstances and it is demonstrably reasonable that the committee relieve marcitos of the obligation.  

[djbrenton]

Marcitos confirmed that she was obliged by a term of her tenancy agreement to cut the hedge.  Without this obligation and it's consequence her argument has no merit.  As it is she is evicted if she doesn't maintain the hedge, and because of her disability she can't maintain the hedge, but the DDA obliges the committee to make reasonable adjustments in just these circumstances and it is demonstrably reasonable that the committee relieve marcitos of the obligation.  

I disagree with your conclusion Unwashed. If the tenancy agreement stated that the tenant was obliged to cut the hedge themselves then I think it would be reasonable to have that clause altered to allow others to cut the hedge. In this case, there is no problem having the hedge cut ( others on site have offered) and it is not reasonable for the tenant to insist that they want the tenancy changed.
 
In some circumstances it would be fair to remove any clause requiring the tenant to perform the majority of their own cultivation but it would not be fair to transfer the burden of that cultivation onto the committee.

[Ellen K]

UW, Marcitos can maintain the hedge, either by asking or paying someone else to do it.

As other have said, personally maintaining a 60 ft hedge could be beyond the abilities of many people.

I suspect the committee are waiting for Marcitos to make the next move as the hedge has little impact on any other plot.  There has been no mention of eviction and there won't be while this is still in process.

[djbrenton]

I should, perhaps, at this point explain one of the reasons I feel strongly about this issue. I have, for some time now, been involved voluntarily with a group of people who don't have the use of their limbs. In most cases because they were blown off. Not one of the people I've met want anyone to do anything for them whatsoever, unless it's absolutely necessary. They do whatever they can unassisted, then grudgingly accept the help of their friends and family. Their disabilities are, in very real terms, far greater than marcitos' yet I doubt any one of them would take the same approach that she has.

[aj]

My take on this is - if the committee have maintained some hedges; then they should maintain them all - regardless.

If they have chosen [either deliberately or not] to maintain non-disabled people's hedges, and are actively pursuing disabled people to maintain them to a standard that has not been written into the contract; then yes - this is a discriminatory action.

Either they do or don't - and if they do then do it for everyone. If they don't, then they can't pick and chose and if they require standards to be met, then those standards need to be plain and simple and communicated properly.

I would not maintain a hedge that belongs to a council [or is leased by them] at above head height as I am not trained in working at heights and am unaware whether I am insured for maintenance of their property. This also applies for rental houses and was a line I have taken in the past which resulted in the landlord paying for properly trained people to come and trim the 10ft hedges.

Last year we were charged for hedge maintenance on our plot and I had to fight to actually get them to do it - as they were giving us all sorts of nonsense about why it hadn't been done; eventually it was and some bits were missed. One person complained and offered to do it themselves and invoice the committee - his got done; one person didn't and theirs didn't get done!

[Nigel B]

But back to the original grievance:  You'd have thought that common decency would have been enough for the committee to arrange to cut the hedge if someone said they had difficulty with it, and for me it's the great sadness of our age that we need legislation to force people reluctantly to do the right thing.  And sadness upon sadness when allotmenteers can't even bring themselves to allow a fellow allotmenteer a miserably poor statutory minimum of dignity.  Shame.

Hear hear!
Very well said indeed Unwashed!
Whatever happened to common decency?

Marcitos:
It stated that if anyone who couldn’t maintain their plots due to illness, infirmity, disability, personal problems… please let us know & we will do our best to help. I think that’s called Reasonableness & a recognition that the initial Terms were not fair.

Unfortunately, as Unwashed has said, 'doing the right thing' seems to be a thing of the past.
Allotments are about community more than any other aspect.. Or they should be. They are certainly not supposed to be the last bastion of the middle-aged misery-guts.

Selfish? I've not seen it's equal in all my time.
Our new allotments want for nothing. We have all the space we need, and more. So much space we have separate  areas besides the plots for keeping rabbits and hens, another for beehives and a heritage orchard, and yet another for simply relaxing under an old oak tree while watching the allotments and enjoying the sights and smells. Plots are 300sq Yards and there are plenty for a town of our size............ But when it came to discussing easy-access for our less-able visitors, we had more arguments than you could wave a stick at.
 

Djbrenton..... "Judge ye not", my friend.
I doubt your on-line diagnosis of Marcitos' disability, to be frank. And you certainly can't claim to know to what extent if affects her.

This is all becoming somewhat unseemly.

[betula]

Did not intend to post on this thread but feel I  must say the last post from
djbrenton was too much. >:(

If a person with a disability chooses to be as independent as possible
good for them but are all people with disabilities supposed to struggle
just because some choose to ??

We are supposed to care about other people and help whenever possible
and I can't see much evidence of that on here.......shameful.

Some people need a kick up the backside  >:( >:( >:(

[djbrenton]

Did not intend to post on this thread but feel I  must say the last post from
djbrenton was too much. >:(

If a person with a disability chooses to be as independent as possible
good for them but are all people with disabilities supposed to struggle
just because some choose to ??

We are supposed to care about other people and help whenever possible
and I can't see much evidence of that on here.......shameful.

Some people need a kick up the backside  >:( >:( >:(

I don't expect marcitos to struggle. She's had offers of help but seems determined to force unwilling committee members to do it. That's what I object to.

And as far as caring about other people and helping others, I drive thousands of miles a year and give up untold hours helping people. I don't expect any thanks, but I also don't expect demands either.

[betula]

Committee members.........in my experience some and I repeat some  committee members are a group of little wannabes whose only claim to power in life can be found on an Allotment committee.As such the only thing they want to do is shove bits of paper around and strut about feeling important.Ask em to get their hands dirty for the sake of a fellow Human Being and they don't want to know.

I feel that if you feel dedicated enough to join the committee you should be involved in all aspects of life on your particular allotment never mind the bla bla bla about what the tenancy agreement says...in some areas of life you have to act with honour.

[djbrenton]

Committee members.........in my experience some and I repeat some  committee members are a group of little wannabes whose only claim to power in life can be found on an Allotment committee.As such the only thing they want to do is shove bits of paper around and strut about feeling important.Ask em to get their hands dirty for the sake of a fellow Human Being and they don't want to know.

I feel that if you feel dedicated enough to join the committee you should be involved in all aspects of life on your particular allotment never mind the bla bla bla about what the tenancy agreement says...in some areas of life you have to act with honour.

In an ideal world, there would be a queue of willing and helpful people waiting to do their bit on the committee. In practice, as I'm sure you know, just getting people to stand for committee can be a struggle. As others have said, allotments should be about community, and people will hopefully help others out. I lose track of how many hedges I've cut for people and how many greenhouses I've watered when people were on holiday. This is, in my experience, normal behaviour. It's a different matter, however, EXPECTING those who volunteer for the committee to do anything for you as an individual. Your tenancy is your own responsibility, and whilst soliciting help from others is fine, or accepting it when gladly offered, I don't feel undue demands should be made on the Association or fellow plotholders as a 'right'.

To repeat yet again. This situation wouldn't be a problem if marcitos simply accepted the help that has been offered. What exactly is the problem with that?

[BAK]

Ah, spring must be in the air .... the first A4A firestorm of the year.

[betula]

Maybe this person feels that changes need to be made to her tenancy agreement,I think she stated that it was cut but not to requirements so the people who lay down the requirements may be good enough to cut it themselves in this instance.