Topic: Discrimination Issues

[marcitos]

djbrenton

You may want to read the whole of the thread & stop shooting from the hip. I’ve taken the trouble to paste again.  Let me know if the concept is too difficult for you to understand. I find that your ‘examples’ rather exaggerating. I was rather hoping for some rational information. Still, I respect your right to be rude.

-   Family, friends etc.. Firstly, there are several people on site willing to help. However, when I tried to cut the hedges myself (leaving me in really bad pain for 6 weeks) I was told that the way I had cut it ‘breached my tenancy agreement’. Any communication to the Committee re what dimensions the hedge should be cut to has been unanswered. Secondly, & I am probably not correct in this & would welcome advice, is the insurance factor of someone helping me who then gets injured

Elvis2003

The mediation got nowhere. As stated above I can’t get a response on how the hedge can be cut. After 6 months the other side pulled out. LA say it’s nothing to do with them. I just wanted the hedge to  be cut to a manageable size. Still do, but with an apology thrown in.

Marcitos

[djbrenton]

I would have thought the others on site who have offered to help would know what is an acceptable way to cut the hedge for your site. If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you? Like I said. Get it cut and move on. Allotmenteering is supposed to be about enjoyment, not engaging in litigation or unnecessary argument. I repeat. The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers. Give them a break.

PS There are no insurance ramifications for anyone helping you. It's only as an employer or supplier of services that insurance would be relevant.

[marcitos]

If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you?

The issue of ‘breaching’ is from the Committee not from me.

The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers.

Ah! I understand where you’re coming from now. If you’re a volunteer you shouldn’t be accountable for any of your actions or decisions.

I wonder why a group of people would agree to take on the responsibility of ‘the day to day running of the site’ when they can’t do it. Shouldn’t they be responsible & re-negotiate the license?

[djbrenton]

If there's no detail in the tenancy agreement then you can't be breaching it can you?

The issue of ‘breaching’ is from the Committee not from me.

The people you're trying to hold to account are volunteers.

Ah! I understand where you’re coming from now. If you’re a volunteer you shouldn’t be accountable for any of your actions or decisions.

I wonder why a group of people would agree to take on the responsibility of ‘the day to day running of the site’ when they can’t do it. Shouldn’t they be responsible & re-negotiate the license?

I'm not suggesting that volunteers aren't accountable. I am, on the other hand suggesting you look after your own plot properly ( with or without help that you've organised yourself). You keep referring to a license that can be renegotiated. I presume you mean the lease which will have a fixed term.

Where I'm coming from is that the world owes you nothing. Your disability sounds minor compared to many gardeners who manage perfectly well with help they've organised themselves and don't seek to be an added burden on the volunteer organisers. I repeat. Get your hedge cut to a satisfactory standard and then carry on enjoying your plot without being so litigious.

Oh, and guess what. It's your Association. If you feel the current volunteers aren't up to the job, put your money where your mouth is and stand for election.

[Nigel B]

If the tenancy agreement doesn’t comply with relevant legislation it doesn’t hold much sway in its implementation. In this case (from October 2010 that is) the Equality Act.

I speak as the driving force behind a failed attempt to create some disabled plots on our site.

From whose perspective did you ‘drive’, yours or that of the disabled?


……I do resent anyone trying to say that they can offload their responsibilities under their tenancy agreement onto others as a right

Probably as much as I resent organisations that purport to be ‘disabled friendly’ but never deliver & people who want authority but then abuse it.

I can understand where you're coming from. This 'easy-access' business and the new Equality Act 2010 have prompted some very heated discussions within our new committee.
My intent was to make the whole site easy-access, but have come up against so much 'do as little as we can get away with'  attitude, it's unreal.
The 2010 Equality Act is supposed to make all this easier, but people seem to have very little real understanding beyond their pre-conceived ides about what it means.

The crux of the whole thing is 'Reasonableness.' Your Association, any Association, has a duty to do what is reasonable to cater for members with a disability... And indeed for those without.
As long as you keep that in mind and can convince your committee members that what you are asking for is reasonable, then there should be no problem.

[Unwashed]

marcitos, I'm sorry that you're in dispute with the allotments people, and I'm sorry too that these valid and important issues are not receiving the sensitivity and consideration they deserve.

As I understand it the DDA certainly applies to the site association if they are providing a service, and I'd argue too that if the committee are providing a service on behalf of a local authority then the HRA applies.

Perhaps you can clarify you complaint please:  are you saying that your plot is bounded by a site hedge (that is, not your own hedge planted on your plot) and that your tenancy agreement obliges you to keep that site hedge trimmed, and that a failure to trim the hedge will result in you being in breach of the terms of your tenancy agreement?

If that's the situation then I agree that if your disability (and I'm assuming from what you describe that it is a disability "which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities") makes it impossible for you to maintain the hedge, though otherwise allows you to garden, then the site association is under a duty to make reasonable adjustments, and from the situation you describe it would seem that the association could without much difficulty trim the site hedge along by you plot themselves and strike that requirement from your tenancy agreement.

Can you clarify if that is the situation?

[elvis2003]

Im not aware of any such policies,we as a committee are not given any guidelines to work within at all,we use our own common sense and knowledge brought in from other areas of our lives.However,we are in the process of building an accessible plot,but as we do this jib as volunteers,and only a few are involved in this,it takes a long time to do,from the initial planning stage,to fundraising,managing it all etc etc
Ill watch this thread with interest!

Ill bring your attention back to my original reply(and by jib I meant job!) again,we are,as volunteers are doing our best for disabled folk,without any input,funding or otherwise,from our LA.If they provided any guidelines or otherwise for us to follow,we would,but they dont,and i suspect your site is the same,so take it up with your own LA perhaps?

[marcitos]

djbrenton

I am, on the other hand suggesting you look after your own plot properly

Nothing wrong with my plot. Quite possible its better looked after than yours. After 5 years this is the only thing I’ve asked help for & I can’t think of anything else I’d want help for.

If you feel the current volunteers aren't up to the job, put your money where your mouth is and stand for election.

I was chair once. Didn’t put my self up for it but was asked to do it. Packed it in. Too many bigoted people who thought that being on the Committee meant privilege above other members. You in that ilk? You should see them take resources from plots that come empty – water butts, paving slabs ….  Is that the type of volunteer committee you prescribe to?

Your disability sounds minor compared to many gardeners……

Bit presumptious that! You are qualified to make that assumption? Shows the angle you have approached this from. Your own! You’re just as selfish as you’re making me out to be.

Nigel B
Thanks for your more rational post. You’ve hit the nail on the head there.Reasonableness.' I posted (see below) this earlier. Does this sound reasonable? As part of the Association I also own the cutting equipment described below.

-   work has been carried out on others’ plots during this time period, e.g. strimming overgrown areas, digging plots over on plots not occupied by people with disabilities. Our site had a ‘Community Payback Team’ working on a ‘Sensory Garden’, they also did work on some plots. They were on every Sunday for 8 months. The site has £5000 worth of assets. The Committee invested in a petrol driven saw to deal with such things as wild saplings and er…….hedges. The Committee offered to cut the hedges of some plotholders even though they didn’t ask for it or want it. For the Sensory Garden a grant of £4600 was gained, this money was also to make the site (as a whole) more accessable.

Not many disabled gardeners posting. Maybe because there are so few as some sites are so unwelcoming.

[marcitos]

Unwashed

Thank you for your refreshing post. It’s much appreciated.

Perhaps you can clarify you complaint please:  are you saying that your plot is bounded by a site hedge (that is, not your own hedge planted on your plot) and that your tenancy agreement obliges you to keep that site hedge trimmed, and that a failure to trim the hedge will result in you being in breach of the terms of your tenancy agreement?

More or less. The hedge in question bounds between myself & a ‘Sensory Garden’. Your ‘reading’ of the Agreement is correct.


If that's the situation then I agree that if your disability (and I'm assuming from what you describe that it is a disability "which has a substantial and long term adverse effect on the ability to carry out normal day to day activities")

Correct.

makes it impossible for you to maintain the hedge, though otherwise allows you to garden,

Correct

that the association could without much difficulty trim the site hedge along by you plot themselves and strike that requirement from your tenancy agreement.

Correct.

[djbrenton]

"Too many bigoted people who thought that being on the Committee meant privilege above other members. You in that ilk? You should see them take resources from plots that come empty – water butts, paving slabs ….  Is that the type of volunteer committee you prescribe to."

Nothing I've said gives you reason to make such assumptions. When I was secretary I was the last one to take advantage of anything. I held myself to be the servant of the members. Having said that, I would have resented someone expecting me to cut their hedge for them when they were perfectly capable of getting it cut without my help.


"Bit presumptious that! You are qualified to make that assumption? Shows the angle you have approached this from. Your own! You’re just as selfish as you’re making me out to be."

You said your disablility only affects one arm. That is a far lesser disability than many gardeners I know. That's not an assumption, it's based on what you said.

I repeat again. You can get help to have your hedge cut. Do it and stop making such an issue. It's this sort of unpleasantness that leads to people being unwilling to sit on committees.

It's not reasonable to take an allotment, sign the tenancy agreement and then try and force the committee to do some of your work for you. Am I reading you right? You've been the chair and yet you've never cut your hedge or even found out what the site rules are on hedge cutting?

[marcitos]

Hi Elvis 2003


so take it up with your own LA perhaps?

Did do. They say it's the Committees decision & they can't interfere. That's why I wrote earlier that did sites that have taken on self management realise what they were taking on? Were they properly informed by the LA. I understand that it was the (statutory) duty of the LA to ensure, in this case, that the obligations under the Disability Acts would be covered if/when management was devolved.

Please, don't misunderstand me, I'm not being sarcy, but maybe Committees get back to the LA's to discuss this. I bet there would be many different answers.

See Unwashed's post. This mirrors what both EHRC & RADAR have said to me.

Regards

Marcitos

[elvis2003]

OK,sorry if I wasnt clear,I wasnt suggesting you take up the hedge issue with your LA,rather why they are not issuing guidelines to work within to committees of self managed sites,as this seems to be the over all problem here as far as you are concerned?

[marcitos]

Elvis 2003

The LA have been saying for a few years that the license system we have here (in our local area that is)
will be reviewed with consultation of plotholders. Not happened yet. Our site had a 1 year license. It ran out April 09. Some sites' licenses ran out a few years before that.

NB By license I mean the agreement between LA & Site

djbrenton

Remember you were the one who started to get personal.

‘I have all the time in the world for helping others’

‘I would have resented someone expecting me to cut their hedge for them when they were perfectly capable of getting it cut without my help.’

Please give me an example of how you’ve helped someone on your site who was capable of getting it done without your help???????

It's this sort of unpleasantness that leads to people being unwilling to sit on committees.

And on the other hand it is the behaviour of some Committee members that put people off self management. When we became self managed everyone voted for it. Wouldn’t be that way now. We used to have 30 or more at general meetings. There are more Committee members there than other plotholders now.

Many sites are well run & a credit to self management. The bad ones tarnish this concept. It isn’t helpful that there is little accountability, in practice, when things are wrong. There are other issues on our site. Your attitude comes across as put up or shut up.

It's not reasonable to take an allotment, sign the tenancy agreement and then try and force the committee to do some of your work for you.

It’s not reasonable to refuse to recognise that there is a problem with the agreement & change it.
   
Am I reading you right? You've been the chair and yet you've never cut your hedge or even found out what the site rules are on hedge cutting?

I think you read how you want to read. I gave up the Chair long before I took on this particular plot. However, when Chair I insisted on a clause being incorporated into the letter we sent out vis-à-vis plot inspections. It stated that if anyone who couldn’t maintain their plots due to illness, infirmity, disability, personal problems… please let us know & we will do our best to help. I think that’s called Reasonableness & a recognition that the initial Terms were not fair.

Alas, the Committee have now taken that out. They even have a collective memory failure of this existing even though the minutes of the meeting the decision to include the said clause says they were present & each plotholder received a copy of the letter.

[elvis2003]

im trying to be nice here,but i do resent the way you are talking to dj,he or she has been one of the only people to reply to your rather volatile thread,many have read this and failed to bother to reply for good reason,you still seem to want attack volunteers and for that alone i cant stand by your reasoning.get off your bum and join your committee,again,make your voice count and stop being rude to those that actually have bothered replying to you,cos plenty have read this thread and cant be bothered
Rach

[djbrenton]

Thanks for that Elvis. I do appreciate that I'me being a tad confrontational but it might perhaps serve marcitos well to work out why. The impression I'm getting ( rightly or wrongly) is of someone who is perfectly capable of solving the problem but chooses to cause trouble instead. Maybe the committee are seeing it the same way. I don't think this sort of attitude helps the cause of people who genuinely need their committee's help.Like was the case at marcitos' site, when I was secretary, a tenant only had to let us know that they were going to be in hospital or whatever and we'd either ignore their plot for inspection purposes or offer assistance. Guess what,numerous instances ocurred where people had lengthy absences through illness. They made their own arrangements. Why? Becuae at the end of the day they realised it was their responsibility and we were the last resort not the first.

You seem adequately intelligent. How are you unable to work out, given that you probably don't have the only hedge on your site, how this hedge should be cut to satisfy the terms of your tenancy agreement/ rules? Surely it's vaguely obvious looking or asking around? Do you really need guidelines or are you just being awkard?

[Squash64]

Just a small point -

When quoting other people's posts it would be helpful if it is made clear which is the original poster's comment, and which is yours.  This can be done by using the 'quote' button, or by highlighting and then using either the B (bold) or I (italic) button.

It is getting quite difficult to follow some of the posts when it isn't always obvious who is saying what.

Thanks.

(Just thought, it could be that I am being especially thick, in which case, ignore me!)

[Bugloss2009]

shows how these sorts of things get out of hand

[pumkinlover]

No I was thinking the same thing

[cornykev]

Ditto.    ??? ??? ???

[Unwashed]

If the rule just says to maintain the hedge but doesn't say what that means precisely then the committee has no grounds to complain if they don't like how the hedge is maintained.  I'm not sure I've ever met an allotmenteer (and never in my life an allotments officer or council contractor) who understands the need to trim a hedge with a batter for example, but hedge rules rarely say anything about how to cut the hedge when it is patently obvious that hardly anyone will know how the do the job adequately without being told.  And if there is a specification it's probably about the height to trim the hedge to, but hedges can't be trimmed to the same height year after year, they need to be cut just  little higher each time to allow for growth, so chances are any specification a committee may care to make won't even be good for the hedge.

Having taken offence at marcitos' insistence on her rights it appears to me that the committe has acted out of spite in makeing a groundless complaint against marcitos.  Management committees need to understand that they are customer service organisations providing a service.  Sometimes their users will make legitimate complaints, and sometimes their users will be rude and difficult, but they all deserve a first-rate service.  Rudeness is almost always born out of frustration at the way a legitimate complaint was mishandled, and this is entirely the fault of the customer service, not the customer.

But back to the original grievance:  You'd have thought that common decency would have been enough for the committee to arrange to cut the hedge if someone said they had difficulty with it, and for me it's the great sadness of our age that we need legislation to force people reluctantly to do the right thing.  And sadness upon sadness when allotmenteers can't even bring themselves to allow a fellow allotmenteer a miserably poor statutory minimum of dignity.  Shame.