Topic: cultivation and sheds etc

[Ellen K]

^^ Bill has indicated that their tenancy agreement structure is similar to that of Brighton and Hove City Council.  On B&H CC's website it indicates that you agree to the allotment rules when you sign the tenancy agreement.  Of course it is possible that he is making this up as he goes along (and it wouldn't be the first time this has happened) but I suspect not this time.  Care for a small wager, UW  :P ??

[Unwashed]

^^ Bill has indicated that their tenancy agreement structure is similar to that of Brighton and Hove City Council.  On B&H CC's website it indicates that you agree to the allotment rules when you sign the tenancy agreement.

In general you need to abide by the terms of your tenancy agreement.  However, if the rules are in a seperate document that you weren't given before your signed your tenancy agreement then those rules are unenforceable because it is unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 to bind a consumer to terms she hasn't had the opportunity to see and agree to, and a terms that deems the rules to apply if you sign the agreement is also unfair and unenforceable.  So if it's true that the rules are incorporated into the tenancy agreement it's not looking good for Bill.

[Ellen K]

On the other hand, would you really rely on that??  Having sat on your plot with the allotment rules in you hands for 2 years paying rent and getting letters and not saying a dickie bird??  I think you might find that constituted agreement.

My money is still on Bill  :P

[Unwashed]

If I'd been let a plot with a couple of wacking great trees on it then I'd have a reasonable expectation to be able to have a shed and compost bin without any problem, and I'm not sure that Bill wouldn't agree.  However, if my site management wanted to be stupid about it then yes, absolutely, I'd rely on consumer protection legislation to ensure that my site management got things properly in perspective.

[brownowl23]

I’ve read this one with a lot of interest as I’m one of the big wigs where Brownowl23 lives and also have 2 plots my self.

So what qualifies me to give my answer/opinion?

Chairman of BFALG for several years, been growing on allotments for aprox 45 years the last 34 years as a plot keeper in my own right, member of the RHS, NVS, NSALG, Horticultural Judge and member of many plant societies. The driving force behind the regeneration of 2 allotment sites and the person who some credit for saving 23 allotment sites from closure including the site Browowl23 is on.

And the other big wig has also been an allotment holder, NSALG member, advisor to ARI as well as working for the local authority.

So between us we have a rough idea of allotment keeping.

The tenancy agreement that we use has been through the courts a little while ago when we had a person who refused to cultivate their plot to the required level and was approved & complemented by the judge.

The questions and answer paper that went out this year is only a guide to why and how we (BFALG & the Council) deal with cultivation surveys here in Bexley. These were carried out 3 times in 2008, 2009 and again last year and we expect them to follow suit this year. Notices are placed on site gates & notice boards advising allotment holders of cultivation surveys & when they can expect them to be done. So no one can say “I didn’t know about cultivation surveys”.

These are carried out under guidance of the Allotment Act 1922, the Thorpe report 1969 & ARI etc.

The question and answer paper sent out this year is based on how other Council’s have advised their allotment holders (i.e. Brighton & Hove have a similar one on their web site.) This we helped to produce following the feed back from our allotment holders (over 2000 borough wide) via our committee, some who have taken on an allotment with out any idea of what is required to keep an allotment going but like to jump on the band wagon.

By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot. This means actively preparing the ground and growing a crop i.e. vegetables, fruit (soft) or flowers for harvesting. The other 25% can not be left to detereaite and allowed to go to weed. (This can then be classed as a nuisance, weeds act 1959 etc) We have had this argument thrown back to us when the 25% area is full of uncultivated brambles, weeds or called a wild life area. Within that 25% you should keep your shed (no larger than 6X8) composting area and if you wish to have a seating area. (Dare I say car park)

The question from Brownowl23 re her apple tree.

I quote the full statement below from the Q & A paper.

How can I grow fruit trees without breeching cultivation rules?
Planting large areas of fruit trees that exceed the 25% of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breech of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include these within your cultivated area you need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be grown on a dwarfing root stock and kept to an acceptable height so they do not cause excessive shade.

The area under the trees should be cultivated by keeping it clean, clear and tidy i.e. a lawn with mown grass and not left to grow wild.

So DenbyVisitor has hit the nail right on the head.

We have had people take on plots and just planted trees on them, then leave. This has caused problems when new tenants then take on a plot and are unable to cope with what is then a forest. We even had someone take on a plot and fill it with native trees (oaks, beech etc) and another person filled a plot with Christmas trees to grow on and sell. Neither of these is classed as allotment keeping.

As the trees on her plot are historical then there is no problem with them as they were there when the plot was taken on, they were never mentioned in her previous non cultivation letters, nor was her compost bin or shed. We would however expect the fruit trees to be maintained, this includes pruning the tree to help improve cropping, disease and pest control. However native trees which form part of the hedge line on sites are exempt from this and should not be touched or pruned, as per the tenancy agreement, this is down to the council’s maintenance team and as far as I’m aware there are no hedges around her site.


Plot size: our plot size now averages 125sqm as we have found this to be the optimum size that new plot holders can cope with. When we did let 250sqm plots most tenants would repeatedly get a non cultivation letter for only cultivating 50% etc.

Delegated management: Here we have 7 sites out of 36 which are self managed under licences from the council. These are quite large sites with over 100 plus plot holders. They keep all the rent they take in, which is used to help improve the site for their allotment holders. These improvements include building toilets, new water tank’s, maintaining & replacing broken equipment etc. the down side is that out of the rents they must pay all the bills for the site i.e. public liability insurance, water bills & equipment maintenance. The site brownowl23 is on is very small and I don’t believe the rental income would cover the insurance payment alone. (Minimum £5 million pounds worth) nor would it cover the water rates.

I still have an original tenancy agreement where you could only grow soft fruit on an allotment no fruit trees were allowed, you could only plant crops that could be harvested with 12 months so that stopped you planting asparagus or other long term vegetables nor were flowers allowed.

We’ve come a long way since then with greenhouses and poly tunnels on our sites.

Can any other council/allotment society boast that they have invested almost £500,000 on site improvements in the past 6 years without hiking up the rents as we have all read about on this site?

So my question to Brownowl23, why has she not spoken to her site committee representative or contacted me directly?

Bill
Chairman BFALG

HI Bill thank you very much for your reply.

AS you seem to know which site I am on you will indeed know that our site is one of the few that has no representative listed or I would have done.

AS for cultivation surveys neither my site nor the site next door to it have ever had notice of cultivation surveys posted since I took my plots on. It would be nice to have warning  - as you say if you have warning then you can ensure that you do indeed do all you can to ensure you pass.

I did laugh at the car park comment  for a start you cant get a car onto our plots - in fact in a weekday afternoon chance is a fine thing to actually get to park anywhere near the site i am on with the parking restrictions in the area. Good job i like a walk to the plot :)
So if you see a lady with stripy wellies and a fork over her shoulder walking towards our plots give me a wave.  ;D

I would love to be able to have a chat with you as I never even knew you existed.  ??? >:(

Brownowl

[brownowl23]

I must add fo rthe sake of others that as far as I am concerned I rented the allotment from the council, if ive had any problems ive contacted them and ive never known of the existence of anyone else other than the council department I rented from.

My site is one of the very few with no site rep, most do have one. Therefore my natural  point of contaact is the council.

If there are others out there like Bill why arent we told about them?

I have to say the first plot I was offered suposedly had 3 huge bullace trees on it and a whole laod of uncultivated brambles. The trees have turned out to be sycamore and oaks.
I refused the plot on the basis that i'd need a tree surgeon and a JCB to make it a workable plot.  But I was told well someone will take it on, and ive seen it change hands twice in two years, not really a surprise!.
My own trees, both the plum and the apple I would need to sweet talk my cousin whos a tree surgeon to sort out for me as I am afraid I suffer from a fear of  heights as does DH. In fact he is unlikely to go up more than a small step ladder, least im not quite that bad  ;D

[Mr Smith]

  I'm finding it very concerning when I read this kind of post that the PC brigade are creeping in to our beloved way of life,

[Robert_Brenchley]

If you can't cope with ladders, the Council can't reasonably expect you to prune the tree. Is it even needed, and would you know what to do if it was? As I say, I'm on the committee of a site with numerous (70+) old fruit trees, and it just ain't that easy!

[brownowl23]

I have to say I find it a little disconcertting that Bill can not only seem to identify my plot,but perhaps even has identified me.
I am really hoping that he has just taken a hazardous guess on which plot I am on given my location. It does make me feel very uneasy though.

What really narks me is that he posted here and said why didnt you contact me but he hasnt followed up with a PM to ask if he can do anything to help.

What I wanted from this thread was a little advice and direction. after all just because I feel that something is wrong other people may see it very differently  and have very diofferent views which I might not have thought about. The good thing ive found about forums is that its a good way to get a balanced opinion on something and help take into account things that wouldnt have been in your thought pattern.

I love this website for its sense of community and the way it helps others, and although I have had an allotment in the past in another part of the country I am no way an expert, and I an very willing to learn from others who have vast amounts more experience than I.

I do feel though that I may take a few days away from the site as I feel that perhaps I need time to reflect and feel comfortable again with the feeling that my identity is out there and my cards may have been marked.

I do realise that today of all days I do feel a little more sensitive as ive just found out that ive lost my godfather, so  emotions are a little all over the place.

Thank you for everyones help though it is really appreciated

[Unwashed]

Take some time out brownowl and come back when you feel comfortable.

[elvis2003]

sorry to hear about your loss brownowl
x

[brownowl23]

thanks guys, feel the need to get down the lottie and beat the  "bleep" out of the ground digging it.
Its good therapy and my boys want to know when their plot is dug so they can plant thier seeds. They may only be 3 but theyve got the growing bug :)

[Ellen K]

Also very sorry to hear about your loss.

Regarding the plot: DONT PANIC!!  You could contact Bill yourself and ask for a meeting to assess what can be done about the trees etc.  I wouldn't be spooked about being identified from your posts (Many of us can be) but you might think about holding back a bit in future if you are really bothered. 

As they say in business: ABC - Acknowledge, Bridge, Control.  Go up - see the big picture.  You've got to take a critical look at the whole allotment, write down what needs attention then prioritise and work down the list.  You might find neighbours who are only too pleased to help.  It's the beginning of the year so the right time to do it.

Good luck, it is hard work and you have to have a game plan and stick to it but as you say in your first post, it is rewarding.

[1066]

Hi Brownowl, just wanting to wish you well, and hope you've had some good quality time on the plot. Take care  :)

[tonybloke]

hope the sun is shining and the birds are singing today for you, Brownowl

pm Bill, and have a meeting on site with him, I'm sure you'll be able to sort it out!!
 ;)

[pigeonseed]

Good luck, brownowl and sorry to hear about your godfather.

[chriscross1966]

Being a nosy busybody I've checked Bill's other posts cos he's "Not So New".... good news brownowl, the chap seems human and a conscientious person trying to get the best for his allotment holders./.. has also offered some sage advice re: cabbages.... I'd suggest PM'ing him to sort out talking about it....

[brownowl23]

Chriscrrosss - I have had a PM from him so we are in contact, he had guessed which of two sites I am on based on location so that doesnt make me feel so bad. I will be contacting him to see what more sage advice  he can give me.

Now all I need is for the weather to perk up a bit and as soon as the boys are at school im down the plot.

Im taking thme down tomorrow to pick veg, although I know there will be tears as there are no more carrots to pick. ................... Note to self, need to sow tonnes of carrots next year to keep up the demand of one of my boys :)

[pumkinlover]

Glad to see a silver lining from the cloud- -that's a bit corny!! sorry but you know what I mean. :-[

[brownowl23]

well I went down the plot yesterday, got rid of more couch, so my whitecurrants arent strangled, and I started a spring clean, some things may be useful but its amazing how much crap the old guy kept.

Question, what uses do you guys put pallets to. Ive got alot of pallets, now raised beds spring to mind as an obvious use but I just wondered what other uses peeps have put them to.