Topic: cultivation and sheds etc

[Ellen K]

It sounds like they have put a Q&A sheet in with the bill. Frequently Asked Questions.

But it seems to refer to 2 separate rules.

1) if you are going to plant trees, they must not cover more than 25% of the plot.

2) your allotment must be cultivated to 75% (or less?  more??) to pass as Cultivated, or they send you a letter. But you can't include your trees in that figure unless you are growing stuff under them.
 
A get out clause for people who plant a few trees to make up the cultivation has been closed. Because of course you are not going to be growing much under any kind of fruit tree.  

Maybe you could ask them what you can be reasonably expected to do to pass muster.  

Edited to add: perhaps this means that plot b needs to have all available ground dug and planted to pass, because of the structures and trees already there

[brownowl23]

Brownowl, can you post the actual term of the tenancy agreement that says about growing stuff under trees, because I think what you've posted is your council's comments on what you're doing, and we need to see the actual ruloe they're relying on.  Thanks.

unwashed in the conditions of tenancy it only states that the plot has to be 75% cultivated.  we have a condition that states we arent allowed to grow any uncultiavated balckberries. However there is no  clause about trees.
What I have posted is the commenst that came in the pack with the bill which was generic to everyone, and included comments about cultivation, helpful hints on watering from Kitchen Garden (very useful), information about bonfires and also about foxes (not so useful as they recommend renardine).

SO as you see the comments arent directed at me. they are to every allotment holder. WHat im doing is trying to avoid an inevitable cultivation notice on plot B as I cannot get 75% cultivated with trees and structures.

[chriscross1966]

Give the trees a bit of a prune and if you'll pardon the pun "spruce up".... surely they then become "cultivated and the land they cover and shade would also be "cultivated.... knock up some pallet wood + old window cold frames and stick them underneath and grow lettuces in them..... If you inherit large trees then there must be a way round that clause....

chrisc

[SMP1704]

Brownowl - do you know how long the compost bins have been there? The description of the trees sound as if they have been there 10 years plus.  It seems to me that the council has accepted this practice for some time (custom & practice)  Do you know why the plot became available.  if the last tenant was not evicted because of these issues I do think you have a case - so long as the rest of the cultivatable space is in tip top condition.

Being required to grow under fruit trees seems just bonkers - a rule created by a non-gardener.  Surely as they are
productive they count as part of the cultivated area.

My inclination would be to stop trying to comply with the uncompliable and start asking some questions.........FOI if necessary.

[pumkinlover]

I have just planted comfrey under some trees to make use of the ground- would that be a use for it. If they don't know what comfrey is just quote Lawrence Hills at them. sure to be impressed!

[brownowl23]

Brownowl - do you know how long the compost bins have been there? The description of the trees sound as if they have been there 10 years plus.  It seems to me that the council has accepted this practice for some time (custom & practice)  Do you know why the plot became available.  if the last tenant was not evicted because of these issues I do think you have a case - so long as the rest of the cultivatable space is in tip top condition.

Being required to grow under fruit trees seems just bonkers - a rule created by a non-gardener.  Surely as they are
productive they count as part of the cultivated area.

My inclination would be to stop trying to comply with the uncompliable and start asking some questions.........FOI if necessary.

In answer to your questions the apple tree has been there I would guess as long as the allotments have and I dont know how long that is, y guess would be 20 years or so its a very old tree.
The last long term guy there passed on in 2008, then there was someone who took it over for a year or just under,  and by all accounts didnt do alot to it, weve had it 2 years in March.

Pumpkin lover comfrey sounds a good idea and of course a great fertilizer.

I phoned the council today big wig lady isnt in she still has flu. the girl I spoke to didnt think that putting the plot back to one would cause alot  of problems, but it would solve mine.  :)
Ive now got to consturct an email

[1066]

let us know how you get on, it really does sound like the best solution is to create one large plot / tenancy

anyway good luck

1066  :)

[Unwashed]

Of course it's all very well me suggesting to you that your council are over-zealous in their interpretation of your tenancy agreement, but unless they're willing to be reasonable (and it's not often that councils are) you could end up fighting an eviction letter.  It wouldn't bother me, and I think more people should stand up to this kind of small-minded tyranny, but unless you're up for a fight over this then I suggest you either need to find a councillor who will intercede for you, or else capitulate.  But then again, if you can neither move your shed and bins, nor cut down the trees you really have nothing to lose by ignoring them.

Sorry to be slow though, but have the council actually given you a cultivation letter yet?  Because if they haven't this might all very well be a storm in a tea cup.

[brownowl23]

unwashed no cultivation letter yet, they'd be a bit harsh sending one out in JAnaury ;) No theyve sent out the invoices with all the rules and regs and associated blurb and on reading them ive realised why ive got cultivation notices for plot B even though every bed is full. So I was after advice on how to proceeed.

Thanks to all of you though I have many good ideas on what to put into my email to the big wig that will hopefully mean a change to one full plot tenancy rather thna two halves.

[pigeonseed]

Our letters are sent out at Christmas!

But good luck brownowl - I hope they're reasonable with you and it all gets sorted out.

[Dandytown]

I work for the council and my view is that local government is a hub for incompetence.  I also received a cultivation letter last year despite the considerable improvements made to my plot.

As a result I now keep photographic evidence in the form of a blog. 

Councils make my blood boil.  >:(   Idiots!

[chairman]

I’ve read this one with a lot of interest as I’m one of the big wigs where Brownowl23 lives and also have 2 plots my self.

So what qualifies me to give my answer/opinion?

Chairman of BFALG for several years, been growing on allotments for aprox 45 years the last 34 years as a plot keeper in my own right, member of the RHS, NVS, NSALG, Horticultural Judge and member of many plant societies. The driving force behind the regeneration of 2 allotment sites and the person who some credit for saving 23 allotment sites from closure including the site Browowl23 is on.

And the other big wig has also been an allotment holder, NSALG member, advisor to ARI as well as working for the local authority.

So between us we have a rough idea of allotment keeping.

The tenancy agreement that we use has been through the courts a little while ago when we had a person who refused to cultivate their plot to the required level and was approved & complemented by the judge.

The questions and answer paper that went out this year is only a guide to why and how we (BFALG & the Council) deal with cultivation surveys here in Bexley. These were carried out 3 times in 2008, 2009 and again last year and we expect them to follow suit this year. Notices are placed on site gates & notice boards advising allotment holders of cultivation surveys & when they can expect them to be done. So no one can say “I didn’t know about cultivation surveys”.

These are carried out under guidance of the Allotment Act 1922, the Thorpe report 1969 & ARI etc.

The question and answer paper sent out this year is based on how other Council’s have advised their allotment holders (i.e. Brighton & Hove have a similar one on their web site.) This we helped to produce following the feed back from our allotment holders (over 2000 borough wide) via our committee, some who have taken on an allotment with out any idea of what is required to keep an allotment going but like to jump on the band wagon.

By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot. This means actively preparing the ground and growing a crop i.e. vegetables, fruit (soft) or flowers for harvesting. The other 25% can not be left to detereaite and allowed to go to weed. (This can then be classed as a nuisance, weeds act 1959 etc) We have had this argument thrown back to us when the 25% area is full of uncultivated brambles, weeds or called a wild life area. Within that 25% you should keep your shed (no larger than 6X8) composting area and if you wish to have a seating area. (Dare I say car park)

The question from Brownowl23 re her apple tree.

I quote the full statement below from the Q & A paper.

How can I grow fruit trees without breeching cultivation rules?
Planting large areas of fruit trees that exceed the 25% of your allotment plot allowed within your leisure area will be in breech of rules. In order to grow fruit trees and include these within your cultivated area you need to grow crops underneath trees. All fruit trees must be grown on a dwarfing root stock and kept to an acceptable height so they do not cause excessive shade.

The area under the trees should be cultivated by keeping it clean, clear and tidy i.e. a lawn with mown grass and not left to grow wild.

So DenbyVisitor has hit the nail right on the head.

We have had people take on plots and just planted trees on them, then leave. This has caused problems when new tenants then take on a plot and are unable to cope with what is then a forest. We even had someone take on a plot and fill it with native trees (oaks, beech etc) and another person filled a plot with Christmas trees to grow on and sell. Neither of these is classed as allotment keeping.

As the trees on her plot are historical then there is no problem with them as they were there when the plot was taken on, they were never mentioned in her previous non cultivation letters, nor was her compost bin or shed. We would however expect the fruit trees to be maintained, this includes pruning the tree to help improve cropping, disease and pest control. However native trees which form part of the hedge line on sites are exempt from this and should not be touched or pruned, as per the tenancy agreement, this is down to the council’s maintenance team and as far as I’m aware there are no hedges around her site.


Plot size: our plot size now averages 125sqm as we have found this to be the optimum size that new plot holders can cope with. When we did let 250sqm plots most tenants would repeatedly get a non cultivation letter for only cultivating 50% etc.

Delegated management: Here we have 7 sites out of 36 which are self managed under licences from the council. These are quite large sites with over 100 plus plot holders. They keep all the rent they take in, which is used to help improve the site for their allotment holders. These improvements include building toilets, new water tank’s, maintaining & replacing broken equipment etc. the down side is that out of the rents they must pay all the bills for the site i.e. public liability insurance, water bills & equipment maintenance. The site brownowl23 is on is very small and I don’t believe the rental income would cover the insurance payment alone. (Minimum £5 million pounds worth) nor would it cover the water rates.

I still have an original tenancy agreement where you could only grow soft fruit on an allotment no fruit trees were allowed, you could only plant crops that could be harvested with 12 months so that stopped you planting asparagus or other long term vegetables nor were flowers allowed.

We’ve come a long way since then with greenhouses and poly tunnels on our sites.

Can any other council/allotment society boast that they have invested almost £500,000 on site improvements in the past 6 years without hiking up the rents as we have all read about on this site?

So my question to Brownowl23, why has she not spoken to her site committee representative or contacted me directly?

Bill
Chairman BFALG

[cornykev]

WOW! Bill thats some list of qualifications, all very well but do you have a Blue Peter badge.    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  ;)

[SMP1704]

Makes a pleasant addition to hear both sides of the story. 

I sense your frustration Bill and as Secretary for my allotment site I can empathise.  I do struggle though with this expectation that plotholders should grow under their fruit trees - this could work while the trees are young but would be a lost cause with a mature tree. 

What advice or suggestions do you offer people such as BrownOwl who take on plots with mature fruit trees?

[Robert_Brenchley]

We have a lot of old fruit trees on our site, and managing them isn't as easy as telling plotholders 'you have to prune these trees'. Firstly, they may not all need pruning. Once the shape of the tree is established, regular pruning isn't normal practice. Secondly, if a mature tree needs pruning, the job may well be beyond the plotholder. Most people don't know how to approach it, and even if they do, they may not be physically capable, or have sufficient confidence to tackle cutting large branches, possibly up a ladder.

If you force people to take on jobs like this, and they have an accident, it could lead to a court case and very bad publicity.

[Unwashed]

Bill, I don't see that brownowl was being critical of her site management, she was simply asking the forum for advice.  That's a good thing to do before she approaches her site management so that she knows her rights and doesn't get pushed around - I'm not saying it would have happened here, and nor is brownowl, but it does happen.

The Q&A isn't the tenancy agreement, and if there isn't a rule in the tenancy agreement about trees then sorry, but trees count towards the 75% cultivation area.

There is nothing in the 1922 Act about site inspections, and there is no law that says you have to cultivate 75% of your plot.

[Ellen K]

^^ I am not sure that is right. The tenancy agreement will say: I agree to abide by the allotment site rules. And the rules will state: 75% cultivation, not including trees unless there are annual crops growing underneath.

To require 75% cultivation is relatively high but then the plots are relatively small so perhaps it is not unreasonable.

But it is difficult to make any judgement about cultivation of a plot by listening to the plotholder talk about it. If you have ever watched the videos of Alys Fowler on her allotment, she is obviously knowledgeable and hardworking with a productive plot but at the end of the day it is still Weed City man, it is a shocker.  

[Unwashed]

Chaiman said: "By Law you have to cultivate 75% of your plot."  But to my knowledge there is no such law.  Do you know otherwise?

At this point we still don't know what the tenancy agreement says so it would be helpful is someone was to post the actual agreement.

[Ellen K]

^^ we agree, there is no "law" which says you must cultivate 75% of your plot.

However, you may still be required to cultivate 75% of your plot to stay within your tenancy agreement (see previous post).

[Unwashed]

However, you may still be required to cultivate 75% of your plot to stay within your tenancy agreement (see previous post).

Yes, but that isn't the point as issue.

Of course we don't know exactly what the tenancy agreement says, so hopefully we'll get that posted soon.  If it requires 75% cultivation and there isn't anything about trees in the agreement then the area under a big apple tree will count towards that 75% and that business in the Q&A about only growing on dwarfing rootstock and planting under trees is unenforceable.