Topic: Am I a criminal gardener?

[Vinlander]

^^ Dithane isn't      ...       persistent either, being rapidly broken down in the soil and metabolised in cells - unlike copper based fungicides.  

This is starting to sound like quoting from the bible - you can find a contradiction to just about anything if you want to...

Dithane is being withdrawn and if you look on the web for a range of views on toxicity you find it is regarded as suspect by just about everyone except the people who make it. The main concerns are its metabolites...

On the other hand the most common use of copper sulphate (active constituent of  bordeaux mix) is in animal feed supplements. Copper is required by all mammals and is the third most abundant trace mineral in the human body...

I can't imagine this being consistent with the idea it isn't metabolised.

It is extremely bitter at concentrations thousands of times less than toxicity, so is almost impossible to ingest accidentally. Its ability to permeate skin is almost nonexistent - though it is as acidic as stomach acid so can cause irritation if you don't wash it off (it is neutralised in properly made bordeaux).

Any dried residue polishes off tomatoes quite easily, whereas Dithane gives you tomatoes with a lingering hint of rotten cabbages - and it's almost impossible to remove without skinning the fruit.

More importantly, copper is used against blight in simple chemical compounds - paradoxically called 'inorganic compounds' to distinguish them from 'organic compounds' like dithane.

Organic compounds are intimately involved in life and if you introduce a new and unexpected one (many can pass through skin) it can work like a 'fifth column' inside the body.

It is extremely unlikely that a substance as simple and well-understood as copper can surprise us when it has been used against blight since just after the Potato Famine (1844).

It's your choice, your health, your funeral.

[Ellen K]

I can't imagine this being consistent with the idea it isn't metabolised.

Eh? what do you think it is metabolised to?  It's a heavy metal, a chemical element so unless you have got some nuclear process going on, it stays as copper.  Dithane as you say is an organic compound which is readily metabolised into smaller molecules which already exist in nature.

Can you actually cite any data so support the view that dithane is unsafe when used according to the label?

Because dithane is a relatively new substance, it has been tested acording to regulatory standards and there is A LOT of data.  Copper fungicides, as you point out, have been arround for decades, well before the advent of safety testing.  And they are easily obtained which means it's very difficult to regulate their use.  But I bet if they were introduced today, no way would they be considered acceptable.  Like paracetamol, or even tobacco and alcohol, they really shouldn't have a place any more on safety grounds but they do because they are already in widespread use.  But that doesn't mean they are safe.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Sounds as though you had a narrow escape. I remember thalidomide kids at school with my younger siblings. I once got a mouthful of caustic soda in a chemistry lesson. It didn't do any harm, but I'll never forget the taste. Paraquat sounds a bit much even for those days.

[lincsyokel2]

It is extremely unlikely that a substance as simple and well-understood as copper can surprise us when it has been used against blight since just after the Potato Famine (1844).

Copper in the blood exist in two forms: bound to ceruloplasmin (85–95%) and the rest "free" loosely bound to albumin and small molecules. Free copper causes toxicity as it generates reactive oxygen species such as superoxide, hydrogen peroxide, the hydroxyl radical. These damage proteins, lipids and DNA.

With an LD50 of 30 mg/kg in rats, "gram quantities" of copper sulfate are potentially lethal in humans. The suggested safe level of copper in drinking water for humans varies depending on the source, but tends to be pegged at 2.0 mg/l

Elevated free copper levels exist in Alzheimer’s disease. Copper and Zinc are known to bind to amyloid beta proteins in Alzheimer's disease. This bound form is thought to mediate the production of reactive oxygen species in the brain.

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

[:(]

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

You didnt copy this bit from Wiki along with the other stuff because its not true.  Eg, Wiki says about copper

Copper essentiality
For a detailed discussion about copper homeostasis, absorption, distribution, and excretion, see: [2]

Copper is an essential trace element that is vital to the health of all living things (humans, plants, animals, and microorganisms). The human body normally contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg for each kg of body weight.[42] Copper is distributed widely in the body and occurs in liver, muscle and bone. Copper is transported in the bloodstream on a plasma protein called ceruloplasmin. When copper is first absorbed in the gut it is transported to the liver bound to albumin. Copper metabolism and excretion is controlled delivery of copper to the liver by ceruloplasmin, where it is excreted in bile.

Then theres iron, zinc, manganese and a bunch of other metals that youd die without.

[lincsyokel2]

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

You didnt copy this bit from Wiki along with the other stuff because its not true.  Eg, Wiki says about copper

Copper essentiality
For a detailed discussion about copper homeostasis, absorption, distribution, and excretion, see: [2]

Copper is an essential trace element that is vital to the health of all living things (humans, plants, animals, and microorganisms). The human body normally contains copper at a level of about 1.4 to 2.1 mg for each kg of body weight.[42] Copper is distributed widely in the body and occurs in liver, muscle and bone. Copper is transported in the bloodstream on a plasma protein called ceruloplasmin. When copper is first absorbed in the gut it is transported to the liver bound to albumin. Copper metabolism and excretion is controlled delivery of copper to the liver by ceruloplasmin, where it is excreted in bile.

Then theres iron, zinc, manganese and a bunch of other metals that youd die without.

depends what levels you have.  The roman empire declined partially through lead poisoning.

Its the same for any chemical, or substance,  its depends on the level . Have you ever heard of 'protein poisoning' , for example, caused by trying to live on an exclusive diet of rabbit meat ?? However, if you feel its safe to chew copper panel pins, carry on, dont let me stop you, im all for free will.

[lewic]

I think its madness to continue using chemicals that have been banned on safety grounds. Recently I was appalled to see Gardening Which magazine pretty much advising people to stock up on sprays that were due to be banned, with photos showing they were more effective than the new products.

An ex colleague of mine years ago nearly died from using the old Roseclear spray, he got it on his skin and it stopped his heart. Not sure what was in it, possibly some kind of organophosphate.

[:(]

depends what levels you have.  The roman empire declined partially through lead poisoning.

Its the same for any chemical, or substance,  its depends on the level . Have you ever heard of 'protein poisoning' , for example, caused by trying to live on an exclusive diet of rabbit meat ?? However, if you feel its safe to chew copper panel pins, carry on, dont let me stop you, im all for free will.

You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.

[lincsyokel2]

You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.

ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it

'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'

[:(]

You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.

ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it

'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'

There wasnt anything to misconstrue:

NO_METAL_IS_'SAFE'_IN_YOUR_BODY_
AT_'ANY'_LEVEL.

Thats pretty clear and unequivocal.

What isnt clear is your '*clarification*

'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'

Havent a clue what that means.

[Ellen K]

I won't be using copper fungicides because they can build up in the soil and earthworms don't like them - have a gander at some of these:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enGB299GB300&q=copper+fungicide+residues

I'm trying to build up my earthworm population not kill it off.  I have seen people apply copper fungicides with a watering can "coz it's safe, innit?".

As for stocking up with dithane, it is still legal to use it, it is just that Bayer can't make any money selling it for amateur use.

[lincsyokel2]

You didnt say it depends on what level you have. You said

No metal is 'safe' in your body at 'any' level.

Thats wrong and thats what I replied to.

Right.

Did you come her to talk about growing stuff or just troll or start a flame war?

chill out, its not that sort of board. If you want an argument, try here instead 

www.4chan.org
ah you misconsrue the sentence , to rephrase it

'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'

There wasnt anything to misconstrue:

NO_METAL_IS_'SAFE'_IN_YOUR_BODY_
AT_'ANY'_LEVEL.

Thats pretty clear and unequivocal.

What isnt clear is your '*clarification*

'if the criteria is that all any level of the metal in your body from 0% to 100% is safe, then that statement is wrong'

Havent a clue what that means.