Topic: The Big Society

[Digeroo]

Looks like your time is nigh, Unwashed.

[Unwashed]

I know, I heard him, it's great isn't it!

There are six sites in Newbury, around 500 plots.  The cost to the tax-payer of Newbury Town Council providing the service is around £100k, our rents are right at the top of the scale at £6.94 per pole, and the Council won't even allow us to help with the maintenance.

How difficult can self-management be?  I'm happy to do all the admin myself for free.  If the site associations don't want to join in I'll just sub-out the maintenance as it is now, but I'd expect the associations to jump at the chance of running their own sites and then they'd keep the revenue to spend how they wanted.  Happy allotmenteers, and the tax-payer £100k up on the deal.

It's just the Lib-Dem and Conservative Town Councillors won't even discuss the possibility.  Just asking to talk to them about self-management was one of the reasons they gave for not recognizing my site's allotment association.

I've asked for a meeting with my Conservative Member of Paliament to see if he can encourage them to play nice but that appointment hasn't come through yet, though it' sonly been five weeks.

I'm going to write to Eric Pickles next.  If the government's serious about the Big Society then they have to be prepared to help me fight the local vested interest.  And it will be a fight.

[Unwashed]

I've got my meeting with my MP now.

[Old bird]

Good luck with your meeting and self management plans Unwashed - sounds like you are going to be busy!

Old Bird

[:(]

Wanting to be helpful here so dont take it the wrong way! I think you should be quite open with your MP about you history with the council an d what they think of you, vexatious and all that stuff. In all likelihood hell write to the council after your meeting. If he gets a reply that says ah yes we know this person blah, blah he might be less inclined to follow it up if he doesnt already know the background. But with a bit of careful manoevering you can make it look like the council are acting on their predjudice against you and not on the merits of the case .

[Digeroo]

Good luck with your meeting.  But don't hold your breathe.  I have written to my MP on a couple of occassions and have never been very impressed by the result.  They normally end up telling you to contact someone that you have contacted several times already, as if your were totally stupid and had not tried everything you could think of and several other things as well.

Perhaps you could get some of the other allotment holders to get meetings as well.

[caroline7758]

I have to say, I agree with whichever Labour MP said the Big Society is a "load of guff". In the same week Cameron says people should be volunteering more, a report on the BBC said that voluntary sector organisations are facing cuts of at least 30% and in some cases 66% by their local councils. So how's that supposed to work?

[cornykev]

So how did it go Simon.    ???      ;D ;D ;D

[Unwashed]

It's in August Kev, I just got the appointment today.

He's already been briefed by the town councillors and isn't expecting to be able to help.

The way I see it is if the government are serious then they have to overcome problems like this.  It's the policy of a Conservative/Lib Dem government and Newbury Town Council is populated by Conservative and Lib Dem councillors.

[vegwise]

HI Unwashed,

I would be careful what I wished for with 'THE BIG SOCIETY' as the cuts they are looking for 40% and as you work for British Waterways which is a leisure industry and with half (£50m) of their budget coming from the government you may have 100% of your time on your hands and with no income.
   :( :(
Also please try and get your facts right not just your opinion. :(
Being a Vexatious complainant wont help with your dealings with your council and being a one man band is not too good either. :(

[tonybloke]

HI Unwashed,

I would be careful what I wished for with 'THE BIG SOCIETY' as the cuts they are looking for 40% and as you work for British Waterways which is a leisure industry and with half (£50m) of their budget coming from the government you may have 100% of your time on your hands and with no income.
   :( :(

this sounds like a threat?

Also please try and get your facts right not just your opinion. :(
Being a Vexatious complainant wont help with your dealings with your council and being a one man band is not too good either. :(

vegwise, how long have you been associated with Newbury Town Council? ;)

[Unwashed]

Vegwise, who I work for is no concern of yours, and I'd be obliged if you didn't speculate about it on a public internet forum.  As Tony suggests, I think you might also explain your connection to Newbury Town Council because as you demonstrate in this thread you're clearly privy to information which is not in the public domain.  Registering on A4A within a few hours of Cllr Arthur Johnson I can't help but think you're also a town councillor, or certainly intimately connected with the Council.

Now, do you want to discuss the details of Newbury Town Council's inefficiency?

£22k running costs, £35k staff costs, £21k share of the central administration, £42k share of the overheads from running the town hall, civic mumbo-jumbo, committee costs, young people's council, and the council's largesse, all on a revenue of £17.k from a gut-busting £6.94 per pole.

So the Newbury tax-payer is funding the Town Council's inefficiency to the tune of £100k, or £200 per plot.

Self management would save the tax-payer all of the £100k it takes Newbury Town Council to administer the service, and the allotmenteers would get the social benefits of self-management.  Don't believe the service can be self-managed on just £6.94 per pole? - ask around, that's quite expensive for a self-managed site.  The Council's suggestion that self-managed sites charge £100/pole is, well, it's not completely accurate in all respects.

Don't believe the figures?  They're Newbury Town Council's figures.  See the Income and Expenditure Account and the Precept Breakdown.

[Digeroo]

He's already been briefed by the town councillors and isn't expecting to be able to help.

He is a member of parliment there to represent the electorate not to represent the local council.

I think vegwises post is totally out of order. 

I have looked at the accounts of Newbury published on the net and I would like to know on what basis they allocate their expenditure on central overheads to each cost centre.   As an outsider it appears that the allocations are somewhat random and do not represent in any form the amount of adminstrative effort required to run a set of allotments. 

Newbury seem to be to be getting rather vexed by this matter which gives me the thought that there is something they wish to hide. 

[vegwise]

Hi Unwashed,

You are right I should not guess or speculate where you work that was a mistake on my part. (I accept the criticism) That is your business as is what I do mine. I am also free to put my own personnel views and opinions on an open forum as you are. What privy info have I got?
   
It was in no way intended as a threat?  Just a reminder that people in glass houses should not through stones, or Turkeys should not vote in Xmas Etc. I am dismayed  :( Tonybloke and Digeroo even thought that, that's not me at all, I try to be good humoured and treat people with respect at all times. If people criticise others then they should accept criticism in good faith as well, as I have done.

I know from your posts that your dream is self management but can you answer the following questions,

1)   Have you carried out a written independently checked survey of ALL the allotment tenants and received a majority that wish to have self management?
2)   Has your society enough committed people to self manage the allotments.
3)   Are you talking about all the sites or just yours?

Depending on your answers the so called savings are irrelevant, because if you are only talking about your site the savings would be minimal.

Max savings could be £22k if you did all the maintenance tasks. How would you save the rest because the other costs are still there, all the other services / work of the council would still be performed it may actually be carried out better and quicker because time would not be spent on the allotments, apart from some over seeing the self management and any appeals tenants may have as this would still be their right. The building, civic duties, committee costs, young peoples council, overheads, various grants and staff costs, (as you know its very difficult to break down a multi task small group to anything like exact) all these costs would still have to be meet. The council still would have the last say as it's their land and their responsibility for the long term.

May friendly dialog continue?  :D

Vegwise.

[Digeroo]

I am confused vegwise by what you are saying.  Are the potential savings minimal or are they 25K?

[Unwashed]

May friendly dialog continue?  :D

Pax. :-*

I know from your posts that your dream is self management but can you answer the following questions,

1)   Have you carried out a written independently checked survey of ALL the allotment tenants and received a majority that wish to have self management?
2)   Has your society enough committed people to self manage the allotments.
3)   Are you talking about all the sites or just yours?

Depending on your answers the so called savings are irrelevant, because if you are only talking about your site the savings would be minimal.

1.  No.  It's not the question to ask either.  If the Council want to know whether self-management is in the public interest then asking an average bunch of allotmenteers is pointless.  You need to ask people with an interest in the movement itself rather than just growing veggies.  Growing in the Community is a good start, as is the evidence to the select committee of enquiry into the future of allotments, as is posting a question about it on A4A.  And then visit some self-managed sites.

2.  This is the the question posed by the Big Society.  Yes, there are more than enough enthusiastic and committeed allotmenteers to self-manage - but they don't know it yet.  None of the sites yet has a site association with the capacity to self-manage, but given support it would not take long.

3. My business plan includes all six sites, and the establishment of new ones.

Max savings could be £22k if you did all the maintenance tasks. How would you save the rest because the other costs are still there, all the other services / work of the council would still be performed it may actually be carried out better and quicker because time would not be spent on the allotments, apart from some over seeing the self management and any appeals tenants may have as this would still be their right. The building, civic duties, committee costs, young peoples council, overheads, various grants and staff costs, (as you know its very difficult to break down a multi task small group to anything like exact) all these costs would still have to be meet. The council still would have the last say as it's their land and their responsibility for the long term.

Actually it's the running costs that are the most difficult cost to save.  In the first couple of years the capacity of the site associations will need building up so the maintenance will largely be contracted out as it is now.  It's only when the site associations are able to take responsibility that the maintenance budget starts to come down.  The Council will need to subsidise the maintenance duing this time.

Saving £35k on staff costs is easiest.  Sorry to be brutal, but the Council won't have anything to do with the allotments, so that means redundancies.  I heard that argument from the Chief Executive that the staff would just go and do other stuff, but no, it doesn't work like that.  I'm sorry.

Likewise with central admin.  Say allotments account for 15% of what the council does.  As it shrinks by 15% it has to do 15% less admin.  15% less paper clips, 15% less post-it notes, etc.

And the same for the overheads.  The council is 15% smaller, so it has to spend 15% less on civic mumbo-jumbo and all of that kind of stuff.  A big town council might justify a big town hall with a big mayor's budget and a big budget for grants, but when it's 15% smaller it has to make do with 15% less of everything.

Some of those savings are a natural consequence of losing the allotment service, but some of them take the council to decide to reign-in budgets proportionally.  So self-management really will save the town £100k.

Another question you might ask the forum is whether a site can be self-financing on £6.94 pole.  See what they say...

[Jeannine]

Good Luck XX Jeannine

[Unwashed]

Meeting with my MP went well.  Very nice man, said some complimentary things about my allotment shed, so I'll be voting for him next time round!  I hope that he'll be able to encourage some of my councillors to sit down with me and talk seriously about self-management,

[Squash64]

Meeting with my MP went well.  Very nice man, said some complimentary things about my allotment shed, so I'll be voting for him next time round!  I hope that he'll be able to encourage some of my councillors to sit down with me and talk seriously about self-management,

That's good news Simon :)
Maybe you should invite your local councillors round to your shed for a get-together, I'm sure they would be impressed too!

[Unwashed]

Hi Vegwise, you've had a few weeks now, would you like to respond?