Topic: aminopyralid

[Digeroo]

Garden Organic are collecting data on contamination incidents

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dHhSbUZDbEgtLWxadW5RaWZZNHAzcHc6MQ

[Ellen K]

But what I am trying to say is that, even as a rookie, I can see that this aminopyralid thing is everywhere.  And that many gardeners are affected who don't even recognise it.  It is really difficult when you see your neighbour with the fern effect on his spuds and toms and other stuff not taking off - you can mention it once that this may be weedkiller in the manure he got but if he doesn't pick up the ball what are you supposed to do?  And then your other neighbours talk about getting some manure to improve the soil on their garden, what can you say?  It is really difficult when it all comes down to what some newbie has read on the internet.  I just say that in spite of the state of my plot I won't be buying because of the risk.  What else can you do?  

[:(]

Chicken pellets are fertilisers. Manure is a soil conditioner. They do different jobs so theres no point in comparing them.

If you are saying that they are chalk and cheese, well I don't agree: OK they are processed and handled very differently but basically they are both poo from herbivores.  So they must have a lot in common.

They both start out as poo but thats where the similarity ends. Manure opens up the structure of the soil and helps it to retain water because of the bulky organic content. Chicken pellets have had all the water and bulky organic matter removed and are just dessicated nutrients in a convenient pellet form. Chicken pellets wont improve the strucutre of a heavy clay soil and they wont improve the waterretaining qualities of a freedraining soil.

[Tee Gee]

but basically they are both poo from herbivores.

Very true but the bulking agent in the manure is the silage which; when used as bedding, is the part that does the soil improving and probably carries most of the aminopyralid as any weedkiller on it has not passed through the animal.

The poo part could be just a catalyst and not carry much of the hormone weedkiller, and who knows what didn't come out  might be in our next pint of milk or Tee bone steak ( sorry only scaremongering I don't really believe that)

I have not seen anything to this affect in the many write ups but its seems feasible to me.

In other words most of the content of the manure has not gone through the animal so the greatest source of the problem could be there.

I'm no chemist so I don't know??  but isn't grass clippings that have been treated with a weedkiller just not another form of silage and we are advised to keep that away from our crops!

No!! the more I think about this problem the more mind boggling it becomes and the annoying thing is; much of it seems to be commercially/politically based and once again Joe Public gets the brunt of it!

[.]

 "  bulking agent in the manure is the silage " ?

 I think you mean bedding straw,  Silage is something all together different.

  .           (A pickled grass fan )

[Digeroo]

Once I got my eye in last year I saw it every where even in St James Park in London.

The problem is that there is still a lot of contaminated manure about the place, and old bottles of the stuff on dusty shelves.   If the contaminated manure is spread on crops or grasslands the aminopyralid will continue to come round.  It seems to be very persistant stuff and very small concentrations seem to have an adverse effect.

The problem is that manure does a brilliant job.  I can't make enough compost.  I have been getting recycled stuff which so far has been ok but I am concerned about this.   But most of all I do not want to be contaminated by this stuff.  I am concerned about the food I am buying.  There is no way of telling whether brassicas and sweetcorn is contaminated?  Is the meat I am eating from animals fed on contaminated foodstuffs?  It is getting into the water supplies?  

[realfood]

As I understand it, silage which can contain grass treated with aminopyralid, is fed to the animals especially over the Winter. At the moment in the UK, straw from cereal crops should not contain any aminopyralid as it has never been licensed in the UK to be used on cereals.

[sunloving]

yes becuase every farmer reads the label and checks the licesnsing for every product they use.

rubbish just like no one uses creosote any more!!!
its about greedy dow and garden product sellers and foolish famers.

However we have had this problem now for three years and there shouldnt be anyone not testing manure for this poison from DOW. If you dont test becuase you wont think it will happen to you and you belive the farmers and stable owners when they say oh no it wasnt our stuff then its partly your own fault to.

its a horrible thing that the link between organic gardeners and stables is now severed by a greedy chemical company but thats where we are. many folks didnt report the damage write to thier mps or make any sound at all when the relisencing came up and so it was relicensed. if you want that to change then you have to talk to people who can help write to your mp, the pesticides people and get dow to take your manure away.

okay this is my last rant as really we said all this these last two years so please read the old posts by searching and always do a test before you apply manure or new compost products.

x sunloving

[Jeannine]

I have to say up front I have never had any dealings with this awful stuff and I think I got out just in time. I am told it is banned in Canada so am not expecting any problems .

I have tried to put myself in the shoes of you all, when I picture Tee Gees site and all the wondrous advice that it brings it makes my blood boil to think if it.

I agree that there is not much news out there, at least it seems to like pulling hens teeth trying to get information and obviously the GP don't know what is going on, but I think they should and  have wondered how.

Isn't there a TV show that uncovers such as this, like a Watchdog report or something where they look into and publicise the situation, I would think this is right up their street. I am sorry I can't think of names as the Canadian shows are coming into my head when I try.

I think it affects many more folk than we realise. When things like this happen it always costs money and losses in agriculture which usually show up at the supermarket check out.

If it were publicised more then surely the other lottiers would be genned up enough to recognise it and be better equipped to deal with it, anything to move that on would shorten the life of the problem surely.

I am nobody with a voice, heck I don't even live there any more but surely getting this out to the general public would have to help.

I am not one for getting  angry but this does it for me,and it sees to be shoved under the carpet a bit, that can't be right.

My rant over, no I will stay mad I think, and do a bit of googling re Canada.

XX Jeannine

[Tee Gee]

I think you mean bedding straw,  Silage is something all together different.

Point taken but No!

The farmer I deal with is a cattle farmer and would have to buy in straw which is not as plentiful as it once was! so he uses  silage as bedding because he grows it himself!

And as realfood says these particular weedkillers are not used on cereal crops.

If the farmer had used 'straw' then perhaps my problems might have been less.

Is the meat I am eating from animals fed on contaminated foodstuffs?

I wouldn't worry too much about that Digeroo when you consider  we drink milk from animals that are injected to prevent the transfer of tubercolosis and have done for years. Then their are the beef cows that are given hormones to reduce the fat/meat ratio.
 
I guess it goes on and on and on, but don't worry the eurocrats have changed their minds about the curve in bananas & cucumbers so perhap[s in the fulness of time they will solve this proplem  ::) but don't hold your breath  ;)

[aj]

I've had exactly the same problem. I've left my spuds in and got quite a few off the charlottes this morning. I dug them all up to make space for the constant rotavating. The main crop(rooster) seems to have picked up so they are now going to be watered and fed. All brassica's have done well along with the onions. I felt really sick when I realized what had happened to all types of beans.
I did phone the farmer he told me he had supplied the whole village where he is but couldn't pin down which supplier had sprayed as he has 5 supplying hay.Bet his village doesn't have any more off him. Anyway, Rotavate, rotavate, rotavate and let's try again next year.

Hmm....wonders if you are talking about the bloke that supplied me [in Shardlow???]

[Trevor_D]

As I understand it, silage which can contain grass treated with aminopyralid, is fed to the animals especially over the Winter. At the moment in the UK, straw from cereal crops should not contain any aminopyralid as it has never been licensed in the UK to be used on cereals.

Aminopyralid was originally licensed for use on grass pasture-land. That's what horses graze on - they don't eat cereal crops. The grass they eat contained aminopyralid and passed intact through their system - it's not destroyed by heat.

But the point I was making was that Defra, in their wisdom, advised farmers to spread contaminated manure back onto the pasture! So, the grass re-absorbs the chemical and the whole thing is re-cycled!! It doesn't matter whether it's currently licensed - actually, it is, but only in formulations used on road & rail verges - or how long ago a farmer used it, or when the animals eat the stuff. The current Government (ie. Defra) advice for dealing with the problem isn't at all - it's only re-cycling it!!

As I see it, until someone does a bit of joined-up thinking, this thing is with us for ever!!!

And Jeannine, do try googling "aminopyralid" & "Canada" and let us know what you come up with. When we were researching this a couple of years ago, a number of us found a lot of interesting information from Canada and New England which ultimately led to it being banned here. (I won't say any more, as I know that Dow monitor this forum.)

[Jeannine]

Well guess what. I have been googling and just realeased on June 14th is  a brandnew product from Doe called Clearview,give you one guess what it contains.

I have read all I can including an article about safety and one fro Ag Canada dated July 1st which reads.

There are no grazing restrictions for livestock or lactating animals on treated areas as it does not metabolise, it is rapidly excreted from the body in the urine.

Any hay cut from pasture in the year of application should only be used on site registered livestock.

The  manure or compost from animals fed the treated hay should only be used by registered use sites where loss of broadleaf forage plants including legumes can be tolerated

Now I may not be real bright when it comes to herbicides but it seems to me that it is OK to keep your dairy cattle on ground that has been sprayed, and if the hay from the pasture is used it can only be used by the registered owner who sprayed the stuff on his own land, the same with the manure produced by those cattle that ate the hay.

So if I drive up to the farm and ask the framer to sell me a load of his manure he has to say no!! Same thing if I ask him to sell me a bale of hay.

Am I right?

I didn't get the link but looking up Clearview Canada takes you to Dow and also to Ag Canada.

I also found loads of articles written in Canada about the problems in the UK, it mentioned specifically the crops on lotties and said Dow were saying not to eat them.

Interesting.

XX Jeannine

Dow monitors this forum!! Well Dow get this.. if any of my veggies end up being frizzled by your bloody stupid Cleaview I shall have no hesitaion is attracting attention to the stuff, if I have to chain myself naked to a flaming crop sprayer in the middle of Vancouver on a Saturday to do so!!! So you can take that back to your next board meeting... and don't think I don't mean it

[grannyjanny]

I was reading some info about what to do with affected veg, can't remember where it was (possibly RHS?) BUT get this do not put in green bins, put with household rubbish. Therefore it won't get in the green compost will it ;D ;D ;D. How have affected people been advised please.

[Tee Gee]

Trouble is Jeannine; Dow are selling a product fit for purpose and the contract is between them and the buyer!

However if the buyer sells / passes on the bi- product to third party after being warned in Dow' s enclosed literature not to, that's where the problems begin.

As I see it Dow are in the clear!

Now if the bi- product gets into the food chain via commercial vegetables then something might be done about it.

Trouble is allotments are not classified as the ' food chain'

So I guess the problem is with us for a long time unless someone takes up the case on behalf of the allotment holder.

Personally I don't have much faith in the political approach because of our European connection and now that it seems to have got back into Canada again it just makes you wonder how widespread the problem is?

So much for grow your own perhaps Prince Charles might take up our case!

[manicscousers]

Also, some farmers GIVE it away, not sell  >:(

[Digeroo]

perhaps Prince Charles might take up our case!

I emailled Price Charles last year.  He did not jump at the opportunity.

I am having some spots of problems in areas which had compost.   Dow are recommending caution in putting contaminated crops into the compost.  But what about brassicas and sweet corn which do not appear to have a problem.

I am sure that the stuff will be thrown out in the greenbins.  Lawn clipping with Aminop's cousin certainly goes in.  Most people do not recognise the symptoms anyway.  If it is in potting compost it will certainly find its way into the recycling.

Jeannine I admire your spirit.  Perhaps we have not been active enough.  But I think that sooner rather than later AminoP will escape in Canada get those chains ready.   It is supposed to be used on grassland but people seem to use it on cerael crops and so it seems to get into the feed stuffs.  When another farmer buys feed there is no way of telling whether it is contaminated or not.  Try as we might we cannot find out how we are getting the contamination.  It is even more difficult since you use manure at least a year if not two after it is produced.

[aj]

We are currently having well water tested as a huge heap was left for a year right next to a well that my lottie neighbour uses. He used it on some tomatoes alongside 'clean' water and was getting the symptoms so is looking into trying to get it banned this way.

If we can prove that it can contaminate water then this might be another avenue to explore.

He didn't ask DOW to remove his; he still has all the evidence on site.

His demeanour has changed completely since we found out we were affected; honestly it has shaken his whole attitude - at least when mine was removed I felt happier and could move on. It's not just crops it affects.

[Amazingrotavator(Derby)]

Yes aj,same bloke!!

[Digeroo]

Since the only source of our contamination looks like being contaminated animal feed stuffs AminoP is already in the food chain.  Any animal you eat may have been given contaminated feed.  Meanwhile if it gets into the water then if we have got it then it is in the drinking water of everyone between us and the mouth of the River Thames.