Topic: £100 per pole

[marcitos]

I thought Allotment Law was quite 'prescriptive'? How have these councils managed to get around:

1) Rents can only be increased at the same rate as other leisure facilities (or are they facing massive increases too?)
2) You should receive 12 months notice of any increase.

[Squash64]

squash64 i had the letter off brimingham rip you off sh1ty council and given i paid £24 last yr, will pay 28 this yr, then 2011 they want 40 2012 they want 60 and 2013 75.....  :o im gob smaked, think ill be loosing my plot as i just cannot afford it anymore  :'( kids were upset when i told them too and this late payment penalty buisness??? pay by 9th nov or u loose ur plot, k get it, but does the
£10 penalty apply if theyre not paid on or by the 1st oct or after the 9th nov?? cos surely they cant make u pay a late fee AND take your plot??? eh?? i think the councils cottoned on that its become popular again n want 2 put a load of ppl off making the sites half empty or worse again so they can justify reclaiming the land or at least clawing better revenues off it  >:( borrocks i say! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
this was for us an affordable safe place to take the kids to learn about growing food get some fresh air exercise and a place to grow stuff given nothing thrives in our garden @ home and i know the increase may not be a lot by many people standards but for us its mighty painfull!!!! wha does anyone else think about the rate of increase???????????? seems 2b mighty fast 2 me....  :o

The rent has not increased this year - if you paid £24 last year then  that was after the Early Payment Discount of £4 had been taken off.  It will be the same this year.  The  EPD and New Tenant Discount will not apply after this year.

The rents are due on 1 October, the last date for payment is 9 November and a £10 penalty will be charged for anyone paying after 9 November.  People will only get a Notice to Quit if they fail to pay.

I know it will be hard for many people, I've already had lots coming to me since everyone received the letter from the council this week.  In 2013 the biggest plots on our site will cost £75 for under age 60.  They are currently £28.  I have a feeling that more people will ask for their plots to be split, making them £50 instead.

I suppose in an Ideal World the fairest way would be to give concessions to unemployed etc. but that isn't going to happen now.  :(

[PurpleHeather]

I believe a loop hole exists that one can increase charges to cover increased costs so that a service is not running at a loss.

Could it be that the provider could claim that as a subsidy has been withdrawn, that has increased costs?

[saddad]

While I agree that any large increase in rent is unacceptable (and trebbeling from £24 to £75 in a couple of years is too much too fast) we need to keep a sense of perspective too. Even at £75 pa you are paying £1.50 per week. The price of half a pint of been, 5 fags or a couple of cans of cola... or roughly one weeks JSA for the whole of the year. If that causes you to chuck up an allotment you aren't thinking straight. I can put almost that much petrol in my car in one filling!
How much do you spend on seeds/compost/tools/netting/ and so on...  :-X

[Ellen K]

On the other hand, the point of allotments is to give people a chance to grow stuff and add to the general wellbeing of the community.

But that is almost completely thwarted by people sitting on plots and not doing much .... because it is cheap to do so.  

So putting up the price might encourage them to rethink.  And you know turnover can have an upside.  We've got people hanging on to plots for when they retire on the fear that if they give up, they will never get another plot.  If people knew that they would only have to wait 1 year for a plot, they'd feel more secure about giving up when they just hadn't got the time to do anything.

And more than half of folk get their plots half price anyway.  As my neighbour says: he gets 2 for the price of 1 !

Must admit, if I were on the council here, I would ramp up the rent and see what happens.

[Unwashed]

I thought Allotment Law was quite 'prescriptive'? How have these councils managed to get around:

1) Rents can only be increased at the same rate as other leisure facilities (or are they facing massive increases too?)
2) You should receive 12 months notice of any increase.

Allotments Act 1950 S.10 is prescriptive in that a Council must charge what a tenant may reasonably be expected to pay so a Council isn't able to set a rent to cover it's expenses it can only set what's reasonable.  I think saddad's point is strong support of the reasonableness of the increase, though the Council obviously got there by the wrong route.

1. You're alluding to the unreported case of Howard vs Reigate and Banstead BC, and I believe that the judgement was that the Council's charges can't discriminate between leisure services and can't ramp up rent to break even, so it's not exactly that there's a limit on any increase, but more that there's a limit on how much the Council can charge.

2. The Council have given 12 month's notice, and have gone the extra mile in laying out there scheme for the next few years too.  There's no absolute requirement for any notice of an increase, it would depend on the tenancy agreement.  If there isn't a rent review term then no increase is enforceable and the council would have to cancel the agreement which has a statutory minimum of 12 month's notice and offer a new one on new terms.  If there is a rent review term that doesn't give long enough notice to quit without loss if you didn't like the increase then your option is to argue that the term is unfair under UTCCR 1999.  But with all these things it can be increadibly difficult to get a council to do what's right if they simply don't care about that kind of thing

[Unwashed]

On the other hand, the point of allotments is to give people a chance to grow stuff and add to the general wellbeing of the community.

But that is almost completely thwarted by people sitting on plots and not doing much .... because it is cheap to do so.  

So putting up the price might encourage them to rethink.  And you know turnover can have an upside.  We've got people hanging on to plots for when they retire on the fear that if they give up, they will never get another plot.  If people knew that they would only have to wait 1 year for a plot, they'd feel more secure about giving up when they just hadn't got the time to do anything.

And more than half of folk get their plots half price anyway.  As my neighbour says: he gets 2 for the price of 1 !

Must admit, if I were on the council here, I would ramp up the rent and see what happens.

It saddens me to hear this.  I've always expected allotmenteers help and support each other.  As sites, and as a movement, our strength is our committment to one another, and that means supporting those who aren't as able to pay.  If there are uncultivated plots then there is a process to address that, and it's a process best left to the site secretaries who make a careful judgement and balance all the factors.  The price of renting a plot mustn't be used to make allotmenteering the exclusive preserve of the middle-aged middle class.

[Digeroo]

It does not seem fair to me that people over 60 get a reduction in some areas whatever their circumstances and those under that age who are really struggling do not.  Basically it means that the younger people are having to subsidise the older ones.  But older people have much more opportunity to benefit from their allotments.

My state pension is arriving soon and I would feel it totally wrong that I should pay less than the young families on the site.  

Perhaps they need to relax the rules a bit about selling excess produce.  

My 5ish pole plot is £45 and I feel it is very good value indeed.  As Saddad says not much more than a tank of petrol.  And yes the seeds :P, fertilizer etc cost me more.  

[Ellen K]

^^ It saddens me that the "class" card has been played.  I think the issue is that allotmenteers have got used to getting plots for a token rent and now we are squirming at the thought that we might have to pay as much as £2 per week!!! for our gardens.

[Unwashed]

Good points Digeroo.  Of course you're not obliged to accept the discount, but I guess a lot would.  But I also don't like discounts where the allotmenteer has to prove how old she is, or that she doesn't have a job.  That just seems demeaning.  But as you say, it's important to remember that for any discount there are other allotmenteers paying more to cover it.

After last year's 47% increase Newbury Town Council are talking about introducing a 25% pensioner discount this year (divide and rule, right out of Machiavelli) - and the most likely way they'll do it is increase rent for everyone else by 33%!

I'm working on a charging structure for when Newbury becomes self-managed and I'm thinking about including a voluntary element.  If you can afford it you make a £12 voluntary donation, and the management trust gets another 28% back from HMRC for everyone who's a basic rate tax-payer, and if for whatever reason you don't feel able to make the donation then you get an effective £12 discount without the indignity of explaining why you can't afford full cost.  The pricing structure isn't flat, but for example the discount on an average plot would be 35% like this.  More importantly, because we're self-managed all but the smallest plots would be substantially cheaper than Newbury Town Council currently charges.

[Digeroo]

I must say I like the idea of the smaller plots being relatively cheaper, though people wil try and cirumvent that rule by plot 'sharing' or having part in the partners name etc.

I do agree about the problems of means testing.  It has sometimes been my experinece that those argue the loudest for reductions are not always those who need it most.

One family always asked for an exception from charges for trips when my children were at school.  Someone I know was pround of how she managed to weedle out of the charges.  Yet she was always dressed in the latest fashions and hairdos and often went to the pub.

I like the idea of being able to tap into Gift Aid.

[:(]

Good points Digeroo.  Of course you're not obliged to accept the discount, but I guess a lot would.  But I also don't like discounts where the allotmenteer has to prove how old she is, or that she doesn't have a job.  That just seems demeaning.  But as you say, it's important to remember that for any discount there are other allotmenteers paying more to cover it.

After last year's 47% increase Newbury Town Council are talking about introducing a 25% pensioner discount this year (divide and rule, right out of Machiavelli) - and the most likely way they'll do it is increase rent for everyone else by 33%!

I'm working on a charging structure for when Newbury becomes self-managed and I'm thinking about including a voluntary element.  If you can afford it you make a £12 voluntary donation, and the management trust gets another 28% back from HMRC for everyone who's a basic rate tax-payer, and if for whatever reason you don't feel able to make the donation then you get an effective £12 discount without the indignity of explaining why you can't afford full cost.  The pricing structure isn't flat, but for example the discount on an average plot would be 35% like this.  More importantly, because we're self-managed all but the smallest plots would be substantially cheaper than Newbury Town Council currently charges.

I must have missed you announcing you finally got the council to agree to selfmanagement. Thats a huge breakthrough. Im sure your site will go from strength to strength now. Well done.

[Unwashed]

I must have missed you announcing you finally got the council to agree to selfmanagement. Thats a huge breakthrough. Im sure your site will go from strength to strength now. Well done.

Err, yes, that is still something of a work in progess.  I think it would be fair to say there is not a snowball's chance in hell of the Council agreeing to self management and that they will use every dirty trick they can to frustrate even the debate.  But that doesn't stop me putting together a plausible business plan. ;)

[picman]

Our 5 to 7 pole plots here in Redditch Worcs are £28.35 includes water charges, over 60 and other concessions (unemployed etc ) 50% discount (not water). Seem a fair rate, usually rises 30 odd P a year.
 :)   

[Nigel B]

It saddens me to hear this.  I've always expected allotmenteers help and support each other.  As sites, and as a movement, our strength is our committment to one another, and that means supporting those who aren't as able to pay.  If there are uncultivated plots then there is a process to address that, and it's a process best left to the site secretaries who make a careful judgement and balance all the factors.  The price of renting a plot mustn't be used to make allotmenteering the exclusive preserve of the middle-aged middle class.

Well said mate.
I've just been through the mill getting allotments up and running despite some reluctant and deliberately obtuse councillors (and particularly the town clerk)  doing all they could to delay it all or simply to bu**er it up. Heh, one of our committee members even had to go around to see one councillor personally to tell them to stop spreading malicious rumours about committee members' plans to grow illegal plants on the site.  :o
Anyway, we've won, and we sign the lease agreement next Tuesday. The agreement we finally managed to hammer out gives us a 21-year lease initially, but with the proviso that the council cannot end the contract for any reason during the first five years other than by the association dissolving, at the end of which, and if the allotments are still running, the books are in good order, and the site is of benefit to the community, then the subject of statutory status will be revisited 'in a favourable light'...
So. Five years to show it is a going concern, then statutory status after that.
Job's a good-un. ;)

Plot prices will be about £25 a year for a full plot (Approximately 10metres by 28metres, or 300sq Yards), plus £2 for NSALG membership (And myth bless the NSALG for their advice... without which we'd still be arguing with the town clerk about statutory duty and what it really means.), and a one-off joining fee of a fiver that will help pay for keys etc....

Not sure any of this helps at all, but hey, I needed to tell somebody. ;)

Nigel.

[Squash64]

Hi Nigel and welcome to A4A.

Well done for getting your allotments sorted, it can't have been easy.

(You and Unwashed should form some sort of group for people having problems with their councils!)

[shirlton]

What I cannot understand is that 5 years ago our site had just 8-10 plots taken and there was no rise in rents.Now in the last 2 years we have approx 80 plots taken. This means that the Council is getting much more money than it did before so are they just milking the cow now it has become popular for folks to have an allotment.
Don't get me wrong I do think that even with the raised rents we are still getting a good deal when you take into account the excercise program and the lovely fresh and untreated food we eat.

[Digeroo]

Well done Nigel B.   It is great to hear that someone has got some new allotments up and running. 

[Ellen K]

Also glad to hear your site is up and running Nigel.

It makes me feel quite lucky with our council - OK they are not as "proactive" as they could be but at least they are not at war with us.  It sounds like more transparency is needed in the system but so many councils fear it.  We have a Questionnaire sent out to us and there is some honesty about the response of our council.  After listing all the complaints from each site, the council guy does repond (though it may not be what we want to hear).  Here is what he says about our site Alan Moss Road Phase 1:

Total plot rental income received from tenants for Alan Moss 1 for 08 – 09 approx £900

During the financial year 08 – 09 the Alan Moss 1 site used 19 skips at a cost of £2660

For the financial year 08 – 09 the cost of water used on Alan Moss 1 & 2 (no separate figure available for each of the 2 sites) was £716

Total cost of annual grounds maintenance operations (e.g. hedge cutting, grass flailing, site road maintenance, plumbing repairs, fence gate repairs, re-let plot rotavation ) for all 10 allotment sites in Loughborough managed by the Council is approx £8500 per year.

Approx. total rental income for the 10 allotment sites in Loughborough £5920

Approx. total expenditure for the 10 allotment sites in Loughborough £24650
(excluding administration costs)

He leaves it unsaid that they think they are spending quite enough on allotments compared to the rent they raise.  But you have to say that this is a tiny tiny fraction of the councils total annual spend on social and leisure activities and it wouldn't hurt much to spend even twice as much.  And have twice as many allotments.

[Digeroo]

What were the 19 skips for.