Topic: Growing a winter garden

[1066]

Question is why do people not seem to rotate them like brassicas, just stick them in any old place.  Are they not prone to the same pests and diseases?  If that's the case then I have places I can grow them, but I grow a heck of a lot of different big brassicas already so never have the space if I treat them like brassicas and rotate them accordingly. 

well this got me thinking. So I checked up on my Joy Larkom Oriental Vegetables book. And she doesn't go into much detail about crop rotation - except to  say treat as Brassicas and do a green manure in with this.
So I looked at a few of the specific veg - like mustards, etc - and the most common pests are flea beetle, cabbage root fly, aphids etc. but she reckons most aren't seriously attacked.
In another section she says clubroot is potentially the most serious disease with Oriental brassicas. And goes on to talk about prevention is better than cure and good gardening practices and hygene.

Not sure if this helps much  :-\

1066  :)

[Jeannine]

Galina, re the corn salad,lambs lettuce,mache,  whichever it is called over there. I might be able to get you some bigger ones, if you can define big, they seem to be more popular is seed catalogues here than I remember in the UK, same with oriental greens, if you can let me know the sixe you are looking for I will have a search, the size has always put me off so it would be good reson for me too.

XX Jeannine

[galina]

Galina, re the corn salad,lambs lettuce,mache,  whichever it is called over there. I might be able to get you some bigger ones, if you can define big, they seem to be more popular is seed catalogues here than I remember in the UK, same with oriental greens, if you can let me know the sixe you are looking for I will have a search, the size has always put me off so it would be good reson for me too.

XX Jeannine

thank you, have sent a pm

[galina]

The staging in my greenhouse is the metal 2 tier type with a lip on it. I water fom underneath with seed trays as it holds water for a time. I had a thought about getting some cheap thin wood & making them into sort of boxes which would hold compost & use those for growing. What do you all think please.

polystyrene fish boxes from the market or fishmonger are usually foc.  Several gardeners I correspond with use them to great effect.  Would save you the work of making boxes.

[Jeannine]

Hope this works, I looked into the picture and found abit of info re large seeded ans small seeded, it seems Europe had more varietied than here VIT seems to be the popular one here, however during my finger walking I came accross this which had descriptions of many kinds.

  http://www.twenga.co.uk/dir-Garden-DIY,Seeds-and-bulbs,Corn-salad-seeds

I also found that Chiltern sells 3 types. I will continue looking this side, according to Elliot Coleman  in his book 4 season harvest he prefers Vit


XX Jeannine

[Jeannine]

Oh good it worked. I am always a bit worried when I put long  details on as my laptop has had it and makes a lot of errors.

Anyway, from the picture and chat on the site you gave me it seems there are large seeded ones and small seeded ones..

I did a bit of scrooting on my uni site

Grosse Graine is a large seed type, it is narrow and grey/green.
Cavello is another type glossy green but no size noted
Blonde..shell shaped small, lighter colour
Elan, very popular, small glossy, upright plant
Verte a Couer Plein, short round, smooth compact rosette
Verte a'Etampes extremely dark green, narrow, thicker and fleshier than most, compact rosette.
Vit,long oval glossy green leaves that form a heavy bunch
Jade, semi elongated Vit type
Verte de Cambria , small leafed


Johnson sells Jade
Suttons sell a large leaved type
T&M sell Cavello
Chiltern as I said sell 3 types

Eliot Coleman, the all year round gardening guy seems to prefer Vit(Four Season Harvest)

Binda Colebrook also a winter gardener says the English type gives more winter bulk but she prefers the flavour of the smaller French ones.(Winter Gardening in the Maritime Northwest)

I have both the above books

Seed catalogues that I have to hand offer me Vit and Jade, so it seems you may have more choice over there.

Sorry if I repeated from the first post, didn't stop to check LOL

Hope this helps, if you need Vit  I can get it for you

 XX Jeannine

[manicscousers]

Janet, I use plastic troughs for my winter salad and orientals  :)

[galina]

Thanks for the info Jeannine

sounds like the corn salad that Sutton's sell might fit the bill for a larger type.  Vit is certainly small and I think I have grown Jade in the past and that was not exactly large either.  Will have a look a Chlitern Seed's offering.

[Jeannine]

Just glancing through Sandhill Preservation catalogue, they have just one listed

  Broadleaf Mache.long glossy leaves, bunches.

XX Jeannine

[charlesdowding]

Some good questions here, two that caught my eye are pea shoots  - yes you should have LOADS more shoots after pinching the first one off (plant a foot high or so, TALL PEAS work best as they have longer stems and are more vigorous), new shoots all grow out of the stem and from the base, pick every few days over eight weeks or more
and lambs lettuce - yes it is never a feast of leaves, they are small, ground hugging plants which is partly how they survive in wintry weather, also their roots are mostly superficial which is why they don't grow well in dry weather (often resulting in mildew), so I sow the seeds direct from mid August to mid September, and find the best date is the last few days of August for plants that are well grown by December, and should stand for most of the winter.
Sowing dates from now on are more critical than in spring because growing conditions are diminishing soon (sigh). Most oriental leaves can be sown now but do better when sown in early August, rocket too, and for winter rather than autumn leaves try sowing in late August. Module sowing helps if the ground is full and if it is dry.

[PurpleHeather]

I think a lot depends on how much of a winter we get.

I always have leeks and s few greens to spread over the winter and the lean early spring months but this year when we got to -25 C It made more sense to leave the lottie and go to the shops (thank heaven we have them and tins, freezers etc.)

A lot of people cover with manure and/or black plastic over winter. There are a lot of crops which will survive a mild winter but sadly there are several bugs who like to over winter in them so there is an argument about whether it is better to leave the land or grow winter crops.

[fi]

i grow corn salad 'vit' for the winter and rocket (don't bother with either of those in the warmer months) grown with the cover of fleece and raised bed. mooli also did well for winter use and kept in the ground until spring. Autumn king carrots kept well till December in the raised bed.shall be trying some different salad leaves this year so shall be interested in this thread.  what about blanching/forcing chicory, cardoons and seakale; haven't tried any but is a good way of getting produce early.

[compo49]

Hello Jeannine.
Winter Garden Advice Please.
I would like to grow some vegetables over winter outside on my lotti but are short of space as only got a half plot.
I was thinking of mainly cabbages/cauliflower and can i plant them were my early/second potatoes are/have been with out any problems? if so i have some small polytunnel  type cloches i can put over when it starts getting colder/wetter.
I have some all year round cauliflower seed will they be suitable and can you tell me which cabbage seed is best to use besides savoy type.
If i can get some winter onions can i put them in later on in the year were my summer cabbages were?
I am in West Yorkshire. Thank you in advance.

[Jeannine]

Hi, I am not sure I can best advise you as I am muddling through a bit myself. I have never quite got this going properly for myself..I too have very little space so am being very selective. I know with space it is possible to pick types that follow on but I don't have that luxury this year so I can only do one or two at the most.
My list of varieties I am doing If this helps .

Cauli..Galleon
Cabbages..Durham Early,  Savoy Tundra,and  Chinese one called China Express
Kale Vates Blue Curled
Sprouting Broccoli  Rudolph
Collards Champion
Pak Choi,,Chiang Chiang Shanghai
Chard, Magents Sunset
Spinach, Tyee,  a semi savoy one,  Olympia as a plainleaf , with a bit of Space to try it.
Swed  Best of All
Turnips  Hakurei,, for greens and roots
Carrots under cover are Mokum(my faves)with Mignon and Parisienne in containers
Spring onion  White Lisbon Winter Hardies
Radish..whatever I have,  not sure I do have some winter ones
Walla Walla onions are for overwintering
Lettuce..under cover I have several so will do a few  then I do an indoor one in a tub
Beetroot, I forget the name but is very common

There are many more cabbages and caulis, I have loads more but had to pick just couple

Others may be able to advise you further.

XX Jeannine

Just to add to this, when I was looking for varieties I found Kings seeds very helpful, they had all kinds of cabbage and caulis with harvesting dates so you could go from one to another as the year progressed. I would check their site.

XX Jeannine

[earlypea]

Here are a couple of vegetables which caught my eye before and haven't been mentioned yet - was looking through wildgardenseed.com paper catalogue last night which reminded me - they give more details than online.

Chickweed!
Gets a wonderful write up  - apparantly the new mache
http://www.wildgardenseed.com/index.php?cPath=55

Stellaria media
A species not just common, but circumpolar in its distribution. Where goes gardening, goes chickweed. Not to be confused with “mouse-eared” or the other non-delectable chickweeds, this is the smooth lettucy-green gem of winter for us. Long recognized by chefs and self-sustaining gardeners for its mild flavor and nutritional merits, this low growing interloper is now making its way into the same level of commercial trade that mache enjoyed 20 or so years ago.

I guess like other 'weedy' greens, Orach for example,  it would be more substantial and not quick to run to seed in decent soil.

And another Alexanders a relative of celery which can grow wild (I saw some growing in the UK that way on TV on 'Grow your own Drugs' so it is possible here) and originated in the med.
Apparantly tastes milder than celery, which would be a relief after some of the celery I grew.

I'm thinking this might be a contender on my dryer soil - sown in late August for cropping in early summer before bolting
http://www.wildgardenseed.com/index.php?cPath=56
(Sadly they don't seem to have any for sale this year, but I'm sure I saw it elsewhere)

Edit - yes, it's here
http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/garden-shop/seeds/wildflower-seed/a/alexanders-black-lovage-20-herb-seeds
although a slightly different name 'black lovage', is it the same thing?

Did anyone try Alexanders?

Not from their catalogue, two more things on my mind......if I can find any earth decent enough at the end of the season, which is difficult - it's all gravel now with the drought.

Overwintering chickpeas, best sown in September - did anyone manage it in the UK?  Apparantly they're lovely eaten fresh before they dry out, though you get a very low yield for the space - just a bit of fun.

And, I hope to be doing the bulbous rooted chervil again - sown in autumn, crops early summer.  I did it last year and they germinated fine in spring, but I gave them mean soil like I do parsnips and they didn't develop beyond dolls house size then shrivelled up and died.  Richer earth this year  ;)

[Jeannine]

Oops sorry I am not keeping up. There are some really good ideas in the last posts and some good links, thankyou.

Has everyone got their winter gardens in now or still sowing.

I have pretty much got in what I can , but have just sown some winter brassicas that were OK till mid July. I don't have space for them though so hope the pea and one of the bean patches will empty out soon.

I have started a mini garden on my balcony but it is shady so not hoping for much.

Has anyone else done any good in shade.

I also have filled window boxes in 2 rooms waiting for stuff, I haven't made up my mind what yet though.

Now next year I will be so organised ~~~


Would be grateful to hear any other updates as this part of gardening has been a bit hit andmiss with me.
XX Jeannine

[calendula]

apart from the crops in the ground for winter which were sown and planted quite some time ago - PSB, parsnips, leeks, kale, chicories, I won't be sowing more of my other winter veg for a couple of weeks yet - that will include chinese cabbages, pak choi, chinese lettuces, and loads of salads such as the mustards, mizuna, mibuna - these all stay in the greenhouse throughout the winter

[manicscousers]

just transplanted leeks into one of the empty potato beds, dwarf french beans into another half and phacelia green manure into another, I've started some oriental green salad so's I can plant it out before we go on holiday in august, more beetroot, and turnips where the onions have come out and 2 rows of autumn king carrots in a space I found  ;D
going to try a last sowing of kohl rabi next

[Jeannine]

Well done you two. I am really juggling space in my tiny bit of a lottie so sowing in pots with fingers crossed.

I wish I had your space. Next year maybe ;D

Manics, is it late for Leeks, I did mine ages ago and thought I was late then. I had an old gent who did leeks for me in the UK and he always planted them for me too so I wasn't sure. I miss him.I bought bthe seed and soil, he sowed and planted and it worked out real good. I was quite amazed when I did it, they looked like grass but have come on quite well. Next year I will do it at the right time ::)

XX Jeannine

[manicscousers]

well, the leeks were grown by a lovely friend and, have you seen the price of baby veg?  :o ;D