Topic: Aminopyralid and brassicas

[realfood]

Grannyjanny, I think that the idea is that farmers are now  not allowed to sell manure off their farm if they have used aminopyralid on their grass.

[froglets]

Our site problem came about because a local horse owner had a huge shed of well rotted muck that he was desperate to get rid of and our site finding out about it was a godsend to him.  The muck was free and for the first two years black gold.  We told him about the problems & he took away the free muck sign, but I noticed recently it was back out again.  In his case, he's not the farmer and not selling it, although, his concience clearly doesn't bother him.

[Digeroo]

But to some extent the test does not work since I grew broad beans in patches of manure and they seemed to be fine.  Until they were four feet tall.  But whick time I had used the manure for other things.

I have lost a few potatoes and had to move a few things round but some of the people on our site have had total devastation.  Since the manure is more or less the same as last year there is no explanation as to why it is a problem this year and not last.  There appears to be another factor at work and I have not yet identified it. 

[realfood]

Sadly, the "bean" test is all that we have got as lab testing is far too expensive. However, I think that the "bean" test will give quicker results than you got provided that the test manure plus soil, is warm and moist to get maximum effect of the soil bacteria.
I started off a test today on 3 year old aminopyralid manure that has been lying around, to see how lethal it still is.

[Trevor_D]

I've stayed out of this one so far, but I think it's time I put in my twopennorth:

Our site was the first in the country to contact Defra because we had been affected - a full year before anyone else noticed or mentioned it.

When Ceres posted photos on here a year later I was able to identify the problem immediately. Because we were all concerned and all supportive of each other, within a fortnight the chemical (aminopyralid) and the manufacturer (Dow) had been identified, questions had been asked both in the House & the media and the licence was suspended.

Because of lobbying, the ban has now been been lifted, but with certain provisos. But that does not mean the problem has gone away.

There are two worrying things about the messages posted so far on this thread:

1 - Several of you have noticed - as we have on our site - that the problem is rather marked this year; there is no apparent pattern, so areas that were "safe" last season aren't this season; new manure - which shouldn't contain the chemical - is as likely to have an effect as old manure, or even no manure. The problem is obviously very complex and needs accurate reporting for us to get to the bottom of it.

2 - Ranting on, and personal attacks don't help. (That's why Ceres doesn't post any more.) Neither does uninformed opinion. So let's accurately report! (It worked last time!)

This is a problem. We need to deal with it. We're not out to get anyone - just to sort out the mess, be able to give advice to our members and get on with the job of growing things!

[Tee Gee]

This is a problem. We need to deal with it. We're not out to get anyone - just to sort out the mess, be able to give advice to our members and get on with the job of growing things!

Well put Trevor!

I was very angry when I found the predicament I was in( hence the slanging statement/s) , particularly having read  all the correspondance you mentioned that happened last year.

 I honestly thought the matter had resolved itself but apparently not, and to find this stuff coming out again under another name really angered me.

This coupled with the bad batch of potting compost I had received I was at an all time low.

I have lost over 25% of my bedding plants(around 250) and about 10% of my veg plants (around 100) due to this compost (Growell) then to have my potatoes affected by Aminopyralid I think it was not surprising that I ranted off and for that I apologise!

So what do you suggest we do now?

[sunloving]

Dear Tee gee
really sorry to hear that youve had probelms with aminopyralid damage
as you know our dahlias were wiped out three years ago by this chemical

I would recomend you do the following
1. report it to the pesticides people http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/
2. report it to dow through the manure matters website
3. insist that dow come and remove the contaminated manure( you cannot dump it at the tip or on site as the leachate also has a dmaging effect
4. write to your mp
5. get rid of what you can, where its dug in dig these places over regularly, plant the few things that dont get dmaged such as sweet corn and brassicas or give it over to a grass green manure for the year (grasses or monocots dont seem to be effected) .
6. Next year you will probably have the smae symptoms but they will be non leathal. I wouldnt eat anything from these plants.
7. never trust manure again , or hay or straw becuase despite what it says on the container famers will use herbicides for whatever they want to becuase there is no enforcement and they dont want a whole steaming pile of toxic waste hanging around and therefore maybe dont tell or recall what the label says about manure from sprayed land

the first few are imporatnt becuase one of the reasons it was relicesned is becuase DOw claimed that very few people were affected becuase only a few of us a. realised what it was (thanks to ceres and others on this site) b. wrote to dow/mps or the pesticides people to complain.

Its a horrible thing to have happen and it opens your eyes about the role of big business in the destruction of our enviornment and what gets me the most is that this age old link between organic growing and horses is now bricken for ever and non of us can afford to be less than vigilant or trust chemical companies such as dow (also watch out for dow reps posting in these topics).
good luck with it all.
best wishes
x sunloving

[realfood]

According to another gardening forum, Dow put out the following press release yesterday :-

Reintroduction of aminopyralid products will not lead to more manure problems

Aminopyralid herbicides have been re-introduced this year to help grassland farmers deal with difficult to control weeds but with tight controls to prevent problems with manure management.

Aminopyralid herbicides are the most effective solutions to control dock, thistle, nettle, and buttercup infestations in grassland. To ensure that their use does not lead to a repeat of the issues seen previously, their availability is now tightly controlled with a significantly amended label and a stewardship scheme which ensures farmers are aware of the implications for subsequent manure management. The herbicides cannot be used on grassland destined for hay and silage nor on grassland grazed by horses. This year sales are restricted to Scotland, South West England and Northern Ireland.

There have been some incidents this year of manure containing aminopyralid ending up on gardens and allotments.

“This is disappointing and upsetting for those affected,” said Dow AgroSciences principal biologist Andy Bailey. “Although of small comfort, we would reassure anyone affected that this manure has not come from use this season under the new controls. It is a reflection of manure generated from past treatment and kept in heaps for more than a year. Also, the past long winter means old stocks of forage will have been consumed on livestock farms.”

The new restriction in aminopyralid use will mean any manure returns immediately to pasture where it will cause no harm and cannot leave the farm. The stringent use restrictions are explained in detail to every professional farmer who wants to buy a product and a written confirmation of understanding must be completed.

Dow AgroSciences’ advice to concerned farmers or gardeners remains the same – to check carefully the provenance of any manure being used where sensitive crops, such as potatoes, peas, beans and carrots, may be grown.

“If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty that no aminopyralid-based product (sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish) was used on the forage from which the manure resulted, then it is best not to accept any supply,” says Mr Bailey. “For anyone who has manure and is concerned, please contact us through our dedicated website http://www.manurematters.co.uk .This site also contains detailed information and frequently asked questions for gardeners, horse owners and professional grassland farmers.”

Have a good laugh or cry!!

[Jeannine]

I have absolutely nothing to add  to the scientific data or personal experience  of this topic, cos I have neither,but I  want to say this.

It sounds so dreadful and demoralising so much that it is like reading a horror story.

I sincerely feel that all of you who have been affected need a huge compliment for having the morale left to even inform us by quoting  articles etc  and  then battling  the big bods while your stuff is perishing around you. Most folks would buckle under something a lot less than this, it would have finished me..a good rant is not only natural it is bloody necessary. Frankly I think you all blooming marvelous.

I can offer no support other than my good wishes that it will be over ASAP and it is good to see most of you supporting each other and  sticking together to do what you can. My admiration is beyond description,that you can cope and try to help others through this nightmare.

What more can I say..it is a unbelievable situation that should never happen again.

Sincerely XX Jeannine

[Digeroo]

This is totally my personal opinion and I am working on it further but I am beginning to believe that the presence of calcium carbonate somehow makes the effects of aminopyralid more potent.  Those areas which have been watered seem to be much worse.  Last year we had the same manure and there were few spottable problems on potatoes and a few pockets of problems in beans.

Last year most of the problems grew out and the plants appeared fine.  This year I have some beans which show the problem 4 ft high and french beans which have bands of problem going up the plant.  Some peoples potatoes have begun to unfurl gradually and others are continuing to be tightly furled.   Since this year is drier than last there is a lot more watering going on.

I have begun watering a few plants only with rainwater and they are beginning to recover.   

I wrote a lot of emails last year in an attempt to get the ban continued I felt utterly devasted that it is available again.  I am even more worried that I might be buying in contaminated produce.  Since brassicas do not show a problem it will be impossible to tell whether crops have been subjected to it.   

I think that it is important that we hold Dow as responsible for damage as BP.

I understand the stuff is banned in Canada and I hope that for you Jeannine that it remains that way.  Dow seem to have been very persuasive here.

[Tee Gee]

“If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty that no aminopyralid-based product (sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish) was used on the forage from which the manure resulted, then it is best not to accept any supply,” says Mr Bailey.

Let me pick the bones of this statement!

If anyone supplying manure cannot state with certainty

I know the farmer I deal with is not the sharpest knife in the box and I don't think he would have read the small print in his last application, he has now, now that I have put him in the picture!

But will other farmers do so.

Then there is the 'potential tax fiddle' I wouldn't be surprised if farmers don't declare the income they get from the sale of manure.

For instance I handed my supplier £280 last year for all the loads that came on to our plot, will he have declared this  ??? ::)

So the fact that they can be cutting them selves out of nice little earner I don't think they will volunteer infomation on the manures content unless they have to  8)

I won't hold my breath awaiting a reply to the next question;

Does your manure contain the aminopyralid-based products sold as Forefront, Pharaoh or Banish?

I suppose my supplier can because he does not use any of the above products simply because he could not buy them now that thet are banned!

But he can buy 'Pastor' which is a similar product.

Yes I think the problem is going to be with us for some time yet!

Particularly when you think the supermarkets grind the  price of milk down,

the farmer tries to cut his feeding bill to compensate for this,

the chemical companies want to help the farmers

but no mention of what is going to happen to the ever increasing 'Grow Your Own' brigade that the politicians are encouraging?

I am reasonably lucky in a sense; I know what to expect from my supplier!




This whole subject has got me thinking elsewhere namely potting compost!

Emphasis is now on cut the use of peat!

Do not use peat based compost use alternatives!

Now what is in the alternatives?

Councils are composting more but what are they composting?

For instance I do not place diseased vegetable matter in my compost heap but what do 'Joe Public' put in the composting skip when they visit the council tip?

Is it diseased or not?

Do the council sell their compost to potting compost suppliers?

So I ask the question again; What is in the alternative composts we buy?

For instance; I wish I knew what is in a product named 'Growell' ?

I have retired from work and I am seriously thinking of retiring from allotmenteering.

Perhaps I might just grow enough from my home made compost and 'b****r the lot of them!

Then the seed issue might come into it  ;) ;D we don't get as many in the packet as we used to  ::)

Ah!! gardening is not what it used to be :-\ :'(

OK folks I think I am finished with the subject

So thanks to all who have put their tuppenceworth in, I have learned a lot!  but sadly its something I could have done without but for the circumstances.....Thanks again; Tg