Author Topic: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone  (Read 29311 times)

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2010, 09:47:19 »
as a alternative for fish meal...

Fish emulsion: Put fish waste into foodprosessor and make fine mess, boil it untill gloopy...
"when diluted with water, 1:100, it is an excellen liquid organic fertilizer. Its nitrogen release is very gentle which makes it ideal for young plants"..
...as long as you (family&neighbours) don't mind the pong.. ;D

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2010, 10:10:10 »
Old books are quite vague with their instructions but this is what I have come accross..

For bone meal...boil any meat and fat off, when clean.. steam to sterilize (might take couple of hours)....then you dry you bones...and when they are dry they should have become brittle and ready for crushing and grinding into powder....
Blood meal....boil down to concentrated mess..almost paste...dry/ bake into a cake...crush and grind  into powder....

other interesting note:  young bones generally contain less phosphorus and more nitrogen than older bones

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2010, 10:24:14 »
So now you just have to get some old bones...saw them smaller to fit into pot...steal your otherhalf's cooking utensils...stink the house out...and beg for mercy that you family do not evict or leave you....
..oh and if you get as far as crushing and grinding....put bones in bag and place it between 2 metal sheet and run over couple of times with car...
then back into kitchen again...borrow the pestle and mortar, and with a little elbow grease you should have yourself nice bonemeal... ;D

...still interested of the idea..?...I bet I only got you thinking even more how to do it.. ::)

It can be done..

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2010, 10:27:24 »
..should we have this thread in recipe section.. ;D ;D

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2010, 10:29:01 »
 ;D ;D ;D..."what do we do with our left overs"... ;D ;D ;D

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2010, 10:31:39 »
 ;D ;D..Oh Im tired, this one hour change is getting to me... ;D ;D...back to bed... ;D ;D

:(

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2010, 10:41:32 »
From an environmental point of view youd be better off putting them in your council food waste collection which doesnt go to landfill rather than spending all that energy burning, boilng, crushing, grinding. Or get yourself a bokashi like others have suggested, you can put meat and bones in it. If you try cooking BFB up at home youd likely get a visit from environmental health due to the stink. Also BFB is a balanced fertiliser, youd never get it to be balanced DIY.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2010, 11:35:55 by weequinie »

Bugloss2009

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2010, 10:51:50 »
course there's always the chance that the person who started this thread is actually a serial killer, and they've run out of space under the patio

Sorry  :D

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2010, 11:15:45 »
 ;D ;D....just warming mi old bones... ;D ;D

..anyway..seriously...if I would have lots of bones to get rid of..for some reason...
I would burn them in my bin barbeque and use them as ashes instead...same with fish waste...
And fish doesn't need to be cooked untill ash state, only to burn flesh off...and then it is easily composted....

Hector

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2010, 11:40:41 »
course there's always the chance that the person who started this thread is actually a serial killer, and they've run out of space under the patio
Sorry  :D

Love it :)

Jackie

Baccy Man

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2010, 11:51:03 »
Crushing bones is not that difficult as long as they are heated sufficiently first.

From ECHO Development Notes, January 1997, Issue 55
Quote
MAKING BONE MEAL FERTILIZER.

Tim Motis, who was working in Ethiopia (and is now an ECHO staff member), asked us about grinding animal bones to make bone meal fertilizer for increasing phosphorus levels in poor soils.  Bone meal fertilizer is produced commercially and at one time was much more widely used.  Motis was interested in village-level production.  The following is extracted from information sent to us after we asked VITA (Volunteers in Technical Assistance) for help and from the Food and Agriculture Organization book Animal By-Products: processing and utilization.

VITA sent an excerpt from a book published in 1947 called Commercial Fertilizers, their sources and use.  Author Gilbeart Collins states that bones were used as fertilizer in England as early as 1653.  "Their value as a fertilizer appears to have been recognized in England much earlier than in any other country....  During the latter part of the 19th century deposits of bone were sought, particularly by the English, and collected from all parts of the world for use as fertilizer."  Even battlefields and catacombs were used.  In early USA history, "large quantities of buffalo bones were collected from the western plains for making fertilizer."  "As virulent anthrax organisms have sometimes been discovered on old bones ... many countries require a certificate of sterilization before bone may be imported."

Processed bones may have been cooked, steamed, or treated with acid, or just been exposed to the elements for some time (desert bone).  Any of these make grinding easier.  Equipment for grinding can range from simple mortar-and-pestle pounding to animal-powered grinding wheels to modern hammer or roller mills.

Green [untreated] bones are sometimes ground and sold as 'raw bone meal.'  "The fatty materials found in raw bone meal tend to delay the decomposition of the material when it is added to the soil.  [Raw bone meal] contains 2-4% nitrogen and 22-25% phosphate."  The raw bone contains elastic materials which make the grinding process considerably more difficult, though the protein they contain adds a bit of nitrogen to the final product.

Most commercial bone meal is steamed.  Bones are boiled or steamed at high pressure to remove the gelatinous material (used commercially to make gelatin and glue).  Thus treated, they can be ground finer, making the phosphates more readily available.  Bone meal is superior to mineral phosphates in its crop-producing powers.  Its effectiveness is increased by the modest nitrogen content and the various micronutrients it contains.  The calcium salts (lime) also present tend to reduce soil acidity.

"Bones are sometimes heated in a closed retort....  The residual charcoal is known as bone-black [and is] used to clarify sugar.  It contains 30-35% phosphate and 10% carbon."

So is it practical to make bone meal at the farm or community level?  Possibly.  The FAO publication Animal By-Products: processing and utilization says that "a crude but effective method is to burn the bones and to use the meal so obtained either as a mineral livestock-feed supplement or as a phosphate fertilizer."  Both dry and fresh bones can be used though the process goes faster with older, dry bones.

"If the bones are only required for soil dressing, they can be piled directly over firewood or any other combustible material and fired.  The charcoal and bones are collected together and poured into sacks."  "To obtain a clean product [as opposed to the charcoal/bone mixture]...erect some form of large grill from old piping, (or perhaps from old car springs or similar material), pile the bones on top and make a fire underneath."  The bars should be spaced close enough to prevent small bones from falling through, and should not be piled too high.  They recommend a pile about one foot high (30.5 cm).  The whole process will take from half to one hour.  The bones are ready to be taken from the fire once they have become spongy and brittle."

A variation on this method is "trench-firing".  A fire is built in a trench a minimum of 2 feet (30 cm) deep.  The grid is laid across a shelf dug some 6 inches (15 cm) below ground level along the trench and the bones piled on top of the grid.  "The advantages of this simple method are that large logs may be used for firing and that the heat is concentrated so that the required temperature is reached more quickly."

The firing process achieves three aims: "(1) it sterilizes the bones; (2) it burns off all the fat, blood vessels, marrow etc.; (3) the 'calcined' bones are so soft that they can be pounded easily with a pestle and mortar...."  It can also be done with little equipment.

"The average analysis of several samples of bone meal obtained in this way was as follows:

1.  (dry bones) 15.5% phosphorus (equivalent to 35.5% P2O5), and 30.5% calcium (equivalent to 42.8% CaO).

2.  (fresh bones with meat first stripped away) 15.2% phosphorus and 31.0% calcium."

"The meal is equal to the best quality steamed bone meal," which is often unobtainable locally or imported at high prices even though bones may be freely obtainable.

Because older, dry bones have already lost a lot of water and organic substances, they do not lose as much weight upon burning and the yield is higher.  One hundred pounds of dry bones should yield about 66 pounds of bone meal.  Fresh bones may yield about 33 pounds.

A junior-high student in the Ft. Myers area came to ECHO asking for an idea for a science fair project.  We suggested he make some bone meal and do a trial.  He grew four containers of radishes - one without phosphorus, one with phosphorus supplied by triple-super-phosphate, one with commercial bone meal, and one with bone meal he and his father made with a barbeque grill and mortar and pestle.  The radishes grown with his preparation produced the best of the four.

It is easy to see why one might want to add bone meal to soil as a fertilizer, but why feed it to animals?  Many tropical and subtropical soils are "highly deficient in phosphorus.  Pastures grown on such soil are low in phosphates, especially when the fully mature plants start to dry out.  Animals grazed on such land have a low blood phosphorus level."  "The deterioration of livestock manifests itself by unthriftiness, lack of production, reduced fertility, poor calves, lack of resistance to parasitic infestation, losses in meat and milk.  Because the appetite decreases proportionately to the decrease of phosphorus in the blood, the animal's intake of protein is reduced."  Unfortunately, such losses of production are often attributed to droughts and diseases and rarely to phosphorus deficiency, which can easily be remedied by supplementation of phosphorus!

In extreme cases, called pica, "Animals suffering from lack of phosphorus have a depraved appetite.  A craving to eat bones leads them to ingest putrid material which often contains toxins produced by the botulinus bacteria.  In such cases, animals usually succumb to paralysis....   Healthy animals very rarely touch decomposed matter or bones.  Two or three ounces of moistened bone meal, spoon dosed, is sufficient to remedy phosphorus deficiency.  It may also be given in troughs, as a lick in brick form, or mixed with salt and trace elements."

You can also make your own cattle lick to overcome mineral deficiencies.  "Bone meal can be fed alone to cattle, but it is better to enrich it by addition of other trace elements which may be lacking in your particular area.  In Kenya, very good results have been obtained from the following formula: 66 pounds of bone meal, 33 pounds of red oxide salt (containing iron), 6 ounces of copper sulphate, 1/15 ounce of potassium or sodium iodide, and 1.5 ounces of cobalt nitrate or cobalt sulphate or cobalt chloride....  In countries where other trace deficiencies occur, different trace elements should be used."

"The weighing of the trace element fraction and the initial mixing of such a small percentage is impractical in the field.  Hence the trace elements for 100 pounds of mix should be weighed previously, thoroughly mixed with 1 pound of bone meal and sealed in a small package.  Then to each 66 pounds of bone meal and 33 pounds of red oxide salt, there is added one such pack and the whole is mixed together...."

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2010, 17:10:13 »
whoaa..couldn't say better myself... :)
That was really interesting to read...I'll stick to the ready made stuff...

PurpleHeather

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2010, 18:31:30 »
I onced worked near a farmer's merchants where they made fertilisers and the stench when they made blood fish and bone was unmentionable. The thought of trying to manufacture the stuff at home seems too much to imagine.

Once upon a time fish mongers and butchers had their own waste which could be bought up but I think it is all much more industrial now. The huge abatoirs and meat processing factories and factory ships most likely have it all in place to pass on the stuff for processing.

Saw a programme on tv once where they showed that at the crematoriums they had a machine to grind down the large bones which the fire did not completely turn to ash. 

I suppose if one used chicken bones it would be simpler baking them does make them very brittle.

For the blood. One can buy dried blood used for making black puddings. Fish mongers who head and fillet fish often sell of those bits for making fish stock and I would suggest grinding down egg shells would be the easiest way of making the calcium at home to match the bone.

The calculations of how much of each and how to spread the mix is certainly interesting.

Are you sure there is not something else you would rather do with your free time?






Dirty Digger

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2010, 23:22:31 »
well being the originator of this thread, i'm glad to see that it's finally gotten a more educational content. There are actually some very good answers, especially Baccyman's post.

Yes, i'm sure it's far easier to buy it, however, this would be against my original intention, as I would really like to go ahead to see how effective my own DIY version would be. Plus, I will be doing so on a much smaller scale than any industry, and as I have access to quite a large open space, I shouldn't get too many complaints from the neighbours re the smell.

As for the comments made by "Bugloss2009", I definitely have a list of people i'd love to bump off, however, I don't have the nerve to go ahead with it......still 11 pints of blood per person would make for quite a lot of the necessary ingredients, so may have to sharpen the axe after all, also, if the neighbours do complain, it all adds to the fertiliser I can make.

now where's my whetstone?

Robert_Brenchley

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2010, 23:42:59 »
I suppose turning them into fertiliser would be an improvement on pork pies.

Dirty Digger

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 23:49:12 »
I suppose turning them into fertiliser would be an improvement on pork pies.

so how would you like your hair cut sir?

Jeannine

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2010, 00:30:10 »
Oh what a post,,  think my ancestors called Hare might be turning in their graves,,, if they are still there of course.

On a sensible note.. brisket bones are not sharp or tough afer they have been pressure cooked like other bones, I used to do these for my dogs, there are no sharp bits to hurt them . I think they may be easier to pulverise.. so eat a lot of ribs for a while perhaps.

I do admire yor determination, reminds me of when I made tofu from scratch.

You might get blood from the slaughterhouse, I used to get raw tripes for the dogs, they were happy to sell that. I would try a small one rather than a huge concern.

XX Jeannine
When God blesses you with a multitude of seeds double  the blessing by sharing your  seeds with other folks.

goodlife

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2010, 08:00:09 »
Our allotments site deed have long list of things what are not allowed on the site.can't remember the exact words..old language..but basicly you are not allowed deal with fish..boil bones..
..and I have always found it funny..it never occured to me why..
..there might be somebody who may want to so some BFB...! ::) ;D
..I'll tick that job off from the list.. ;)

Baccy Man

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2010, 08:38:09 »
You might get blood from the slaughterhouse, I used to get raw tripes for the dogs, they were happy to sell that. I would try a small one rather than a huge concern.

Unfortunately most abbatoirs have been infiltrated by the health & safety brigade which means that buying blood can be extremely difficult due to the paperwork that has to accompany waste material. If you take an animal in to be slaughtered you can have all the material normally discarded back with a couple of exceptions like cow heads & spinal columns but most people would have more luck buying in dried pigs blood imported from holland. Any butchers should be able to supply food grade dried blood alternately you could purchase direct from a butchers suppliers such as Scobies.
http://www.scobiesdirect.com/ItemInfo.asp?ItemDesc=Dried+Blood&ItemNo=OC30146

It may work out cheaper to buy non food grade dried blood intended for horticultural use though, 25kg sacks should be available from most agricultural or horticultural merchants.

Dirty Digger

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Re: How do I make Fish Blood and Bone
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2010, 14:23:32 »
Unfortunately most abbatoirs have been infiltrated by the health & safety brigade which means that buying blood can be extremely difficult due to the paperwork that has to accompany waste material.

always the way....the b*stards!


It may work out cheaper to buy non food grade dried blood intended for horticultural use though, 25kg sacks should be available from most agricultural or horticultural merchants.

that's a good idea. Not sure if i'd want 25 kg of dried bloody laying around though but who knows, if I go ahead and buy some, perhaps someone else would care to split it with me. I should imagine 5-10 kg (consider that in ratio with the bone and fish this amount of blood would make a lot) would be more than enough to cover a large plot for a year at the very least. Probably 2 or more years even and considering i've got a huge leaf and grass cuttings composting operation going on, it sounds like next years harvest could be quite sizeable.

 

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