Topic: BROTHER AND SISTER SHARING A PLOT

[Trevor_D]

We don't have shared tenancies on our site either - we are a limited company and all plot-holders are shareholders. But - in circumstances like this - the share simply transfers to the family member, who therefore takes over the plot.

And if husband & wife both wish to become members, that's fine - it just means two plots.

[Robert_Brenchley]

That's the sort of point you need to be making loud and clear! Why should there be one rule for the clique and another rule for everyone else?

[1066]

Grandad - from what you have said I would say you are not being treated equitably. I usually find in tricky situations that if you mention to the council or the committee of whoever that you are not being treated equitably they soon back down!

Best wishes

1066

[Unwashed]

Yes on technical terms you may be right Unwashed but a "Lease" "Licence" are much the same and can be determined by a number of factors and death of a "tenant" is one of them as "they (the tenant)" are unable to carry out the terms of the lease/licence ie maintain the plot.

There are no "ownership" rights to an allotment - you have tenancy rights - and they are applicable to the "tenant" only they are not transferable to other members of the family as a "right".  The owner of the land remains in ownership at all times and can (as sometimes happens) when a site is closed down (as has happened in London to make way for the Olympics).  There is no continuing right to those allotments howevery long they have been "leased" to owners of familys in the past.

There are some plots "up North"! where they were purchased and you could buy into and sell on these plots as the land was owned by the allotment committe or whatever they would call it. But where they are owned by a Council, Private Landlord or Company they remain always in the ownership of the "Owners" and are not allowed to be given, passed on to family relatives, or Willed to anyone.

You have exclusive possession of an allotment plot for however long you want it if you keep to all the rules, regulations and maintenance aspects in your name (and joint if required) for as long as you want.  They are not "transferable" to someone you "designate".

Old Bird

A lease and licence are very different.  A lease is property (S.1 Law of Property 1925 defines it so), and it doesn't end with the death of the tenant.  By rights the tenancy would need to be ended by either the landlord or estate serving notice to quit, though I don't think that's usual.  I have seen clauses that say the tenancy will end if the tenant dies, but I suspect that could be challenged.

Ownership of land is not a very precise description of what goes on.  If you rent some land that you own, then you retain the freehold reversion, but the tenant has the right to exclusive possession and you have no more right to go into the field than the next man.  In a sense you still 'own' the field because when the lease ends you get your rights back, but it's the tenant that enjoys the field, and although she is not the freeholder the field (that is, the right to exclusively enjoy the field) is the tenant's property.

If you rented out the field for a high rent then the freehold reversion (which itself is still property) is itself valuable, but if you own the freehold reversion of an otherwise valuable field let for 1000 years at £1/year then what you have isn't worth very much, and it's the leaseholder that own the valuable property, ie, the lease.

[Robert_Brenchley]

My church owns a parcel of land which is leased to National Childrens' Homes for 99 years, on a ridiculous lease which only allows the rent to be reassessed every 33 years. That's where they were in the 1960's; I've heard even worse stories.

So a few years ago we were getting about £300 a year, NCH were sitting pretty, and they were desperate to buy the land off us. Meanwhile, the land was worth nothing to us. We sat tight, the magic 33rd year came, and suddenly we were the ones with a valuable property, at least till inflation eats it away!

[Digeroo]

Swindon is full of  houses with a 999 year lease set up ath the turn of the century circa 1900.  The ground rent was set at 7s 6d a week now 38p.  A huge amount at the time.  Since it is specifically payable weekly it is too expensive to collect.  Also Lease holders now have the right o buy the freehold and it cost too much to transfer.  So the freeholder has now gone to ground and the ground rents have not been paid for many years.  So the total value of the properties lie in the lease. 

[Old bird]

I think we are talking about different things Unwashed.  Field leases are very different to allotment leases. 

If you have an allotment from the Council you have a Lease or a Licence?

If we were able to get these Leases/Licences from the council for nothing and then keep them in the family and Will them to future family upon our deaths - there would never be any allotments for newcomers.  They are only used for the named persons and not for inheritance by deed of gift or anything.

As I say Unwashed - I think we are talking about very different things.  A field lease is a very much more complicated legal document to an allotment lease.  In a field lease you get into boundaries, water supplies, stream boundaries, gates, etc.  With a field lease it is considered an asset on death and has monetary value and can be passed on or willed to family or whoever. Certainly nothing like the allotment Lease I signed.

Digeroo - Yes that Lease is different from an allotment Lease.  It is many pages long and when you buy or sell the Leasehold property the solicitors will enquire as to whether the ground rent has been paid and if not who it has to be paid to or whatever.  This lease ties you into a number of conditions and holds you to various obligations.  It is normally possible to buy the freehold for a couple of hundred quid if you can contact the freeholder which is generally not too difficult to find out
these Leases normally involve property ie. houses/flats and obviously they have a value and can be left to your family or whoever you choose.  This is completely different to the allotment leases that we mostly agree to and which is what the original thread was about.

I think that most allotment leases are not complicated legal documents they are simple and I have never heard of anyone being served a Section whatever notice.  They are just told that if they don't bring the allotment up to scratch they will be asked to leave.  There is never any "court forms" or anything like that!

As I have already said that may be that we are just a Town Council and the bigger cities and councils probably run things along very different lines and so I may be talking out of my hat!

Old Bird

 :o

[Digeroo]

 I am not convniced that the simplicity of the lease agreement has any particular bearing on situation.

The turn of the century leases are very simple documents, in fact too simple since they did not give any opportunity for increasing the payments.

Has anyone tested the situation by insisting that they had inherited an allotment lease and taken it to court?     I would suggest  local authorities and the allotment movement do not want a ruling on this matter.

Apart from a few cases it is a much better principle that it passes to the next person on the official list rather than being sold like a property lease.

[Unwashed]

I am not convniced that the simplicity of the lease agreement has any particular bearing on situation.

The turn of the century leases are very simple documents, in fact too simple since they did not give any opportunity for increasing the payments.

There is no formality requirement for a short lease of less than three years, so a verbal agreement creates a legal lease just as effectively as a tenancy agreement, whether executed as a deed or not.  Although an allotment lease can run for many years it's actually a periodic tenancy for a year.  It's a fundamental requirement that the extent of the land being leased is defined, so that might well take a bit of description with a field whereas you basically just need to know the plot number for an allotment.  There aren't any required terms to an agreement so it's only as complicated as the landlord (or her solicitor) wants to make it.

Incidentally, defining the boundary of a field is notoriously tricky:  given a field bounded by a ditch and hedge, where exactly do you suppose the boundary line runs?

Apart from a few cases it is a much better principle that it passes to the next person on the official list rather than being sold like a property lease.

It's an interesting point, and I tend to agree, but the problem is created by the lack of allotments.  If there were no waiting lists there would be little value in a current lease, and little objection if anyone wanted to assign or inherit.

[Hyacinth]

Back to the OP..I really really hope and wish that the poor bereaved lady will keep the lottie she and her bro have cultivated - and keep it without going through ins-and-out hoops - isorl. :(

Any common decency, any humanity, and the question wouldn't have arisen, to me. >:(