Topic: Children on Allotments

[grawrc]

Of course using age as a way of segregating people is always going to be a random kind of thing and there will always be exceptions to the general rule. What made 21 the age of maturity at one time and 18 at another? How come you can join the army or get married at 16 but not vote?

Personally I don't mind kids having allotments - not little kids but maybe teenagers? But then how will they have enough time to do homework, study, pass exams, play, help around the house, meet their mates...??The things that most well-balanced young folk choose to do. And god help them if they're also talented at sport or music or drama or anything that requires a lot of time and effort.

My kids and grandkids really enjoy working on my allotment (well some do, some don't) but frankly, if they started talking about getting a plot of their own I'd be gobsmacked. And I would discourage them. At their age they need to be experiencing all of life's dimensions and an allotment, with its huge time requirement would, IMHO, limit their growth and development as balanced human beings. Helping and learning how is quite enough.

Other parents might, of course, feel differently and that's OK. But if you have to choose between a 30 year old father of 4 and a 14 year old wanting an allotment that's where it gets difficult.

Also, as Trevor pointed out, there are legal issues around minors working plots and rights and responsibilities.

But it is a windup isn't it? :P

[grawrc]

Why is it these days people want to see kids as mini adults all the time.??

Tell that to the kids in former times who went down mines and up chimneys before they reached double figures.

[Geoff H]

This topic started  as to whether we allotment associations should have to worry about the new child protection legislation with regard to minors. I don't think it is relevent but it bothers me that some will use it to reinforce their prejudice against young people. And that prejudice seems to be here.
Most young people are very nice and honest, but get a bad name from the small minority who spoil it for others and i have spent all my working life working in "bog standard comprehensives". Some of the nicest were the ones who attended the gardening club. Some of them who were not well gifted in the brain department but they were committed, loyal and hard working. Unfortunately they could only work in lunchtimes, they lived too far away, and many schools don't have proper lunchtimes anymore.
I resent the implication that a 14 year old is incapable of having the committment or time to fit in an allotment. At that age I was the main gardener in my family and had outgrown the family garden and was on a n allotment waiting list. I wish that i had the opportunity to grow more at that age and so expand my knowledge earlier - I did not get to the top of the waiting list till I left home.
As for safety I know a lot of 14 year olds who are probably bigger and stronger than most on this forum. Unlike most people I don't get intimidated by groups of teenagers even if they are strangers to me. The kids who cause trouble are the least likely to want an allotment. Teenagers get bored during school holidays and I am sure some would love to be able to go down on their own and work the plot.

[Squash64]

I'm saying there shouldn't be an age limit, because capability isn't defined by age.  Whether a child (that is, someone under 18) is capable of working on a plot unsupervised is a matter for the parent and it'll depend on the child and the situation. ....

  ....It depends on the child and the situation, and that's a choice for the parent.

You're not serious, are you?

Some parents do not have common sense.  The mother who left her four children, all under the age of 4, for 24 hours didn't have much common sense, did she? 

What if this mother wanted a plot for the 4-year-old? 

Without a lower age limit she would be able to choose to do this.

[Psi (Pronounced 'Si'!)]

Slightly off topic but I hate it when these kids are so admired for having to take over the running of a family............In a modern society like ours why can't these kids have a support system put into their homes so they should be enjoying their childhood,not some kid having to give up their childhood.Something precious and taken away for ever.

Why is it these days people want to see kids as mini adults all the time.??

My rant over.

unfortunately it isn't always possible to live in an 'ideal' world and amongst a tiny minority of family units some kids have to take on more responsibility that people would have liked.  Death of a parent is one such situation - someone still needs to go out and work and yes maybe he oldest child will have to take on some extra duties.  A shame but a reality.

my experience of kids on allotments generally is that opinion is very polarised.  Some plot holders are very anti my kids coming down the plot (age 2 and 4) because they make a little bit of noise and run around on my plot.  The reality is that the kids are only ever down there for about an hour a month and they do not go anywhere other than my plot!  Others love seeing the kids getting excited about growing and remark how lovely it is to see them on the plot.

Personally people getting revved up about kids on allotments is a non conversation - it would be a bit like getting in a lather about OAPs on the site and wondering if the oldies are too frail and could fall and hurt themselves.  I think we all do a subconscious risk assessment and work out the pros outweigh the cons and getting down the plot is what is best!

[shirlton]

Hey mister you watch wot you are saying about OAP's. We were gardening before you were even thought of ;D

[Psi (Pronounced 'Si'!)]

Hey mister you watch wot you are saying about OAP's. We were gardening before you were even thought of ;D

gotta love the old ducks!  :P

[BarriedaleNick]

Nuff said?

[grawrc]

There are two different points being made here:

1. Children are OK on their parents' allotments. Yes, I agree, super, love them to bits. Great experience for the kids and normally fun for adjacent plot holders too. I love seeing particularly the little ones' delight when they see where fruit and veg come from. Also they get to chat with and help adjacent plot holders, play with other kids and give their parents a bit of space for their gardening. And that's what community is about.

2. A child of any age should be entitled to hold an allotment plot in their own name. No, I disagree, I don't think that should be a right, although there might well be rare occasions when, if there were full and sensible parental support and the plot  (for legal reasons) was in the parent's name that I would consider it.

I too have spent 40 years as a teacher working with 10-18year olds. They're great but most of the 15-18 year olds are so busy studying, becoming parents  or trying to get  a job that their interests are elsewhere. For the younger ones we had a gardening club and a school "allotment" where they had the chance to learn the ropes in a very protected environment. I know it is only one school, but nobody continued in the clubs once they reached the exam years, albeit one lad (in the 17 years I was in the school) went on to train as a gardener.

I'm all in favour of young people's rights, but with rights go responsibilities and, in my opinion, the vast majority of young people would not want this particular responsibility. The problem, as so many others have reiterated, is that once you change the rules, you're left with the consequences.

To give you an example: at uni I was on the staff/student council and, at the request of my peers, quizzed the German Prof about the requirement for students of Modern Languages to have Higher(sort of like AS level) Latin. I pointed out that there were very good linguists who had not done Latin who were excluded because of this rule. He replied that the rule existed because without it Latin would cease to be taught in schools and a great cultural heritage would be lost. He added that the university would never exclude a student with good linguistic knowledge simply because they did not have Latin and listed a number of alumni for whom that was the case. Don't know if everyone will see the parallel but as we know he was correct. Once the requirement for Latin was removed it virtually died in all but a few Scottish schools.

I would like us to be able to use common sense and good judgment as to when a minor should be allowed to take charge of a plot rather than open the doors to all and sundry. I'm afraid, that in that scenario we might not like what we'd get.

[cornykev]

I think PSI just about summed it up, no offence Shirl.    :P     ;D ;D ;D

[chriscross1966]

I generally find that kids on allotments are fine, as long as you run them through the shredder and mix them thoroughly into the compost. Best for things like squashes and sweetcorn, heavy feeders etc.... If they make too much noise you might want to change the settings on your shredder.....

chrisc

[tonybloke]

I generally find that kids on allotments are fine, as long as you run them through the shredder and mix them thoroughly into the compost. Best for things like squashes and sweetcorn, heavy feeders etc.... If they make too much noise you might want to change the settings on your shredder.....

chrisc

:) :) :) :)

[Geoff H]

Well my experience was a lot different from grawrc. I had the older ones on my gardening club. There was a lot of this "strong in t'arm but thick in t'head" with some of them. Not afraid of hard manual graft, in fact they loved it after being stuck in a desk all morning . I remember that the big lads were avid watchers of Gardener's World. At that time it had the woman with the "big tits and no bra" as they quaintly put it.
I would not agree that kids that age don't have the time. The main problem is to keep teenagers usefully occupied and out of trouble. Giving them an opportunity to develop a hobby gives them a sense of achievement and remember the ones who are keen on gardening will be the keenest on doing things that are socially acceptable.
My impression is that the social structure of allotmenteering has changed in recent years. It is no longer an old man's preserve. There are many young adults taking allotments and many women. The younger generation seems to be much more aware and concerned about the ethics and standard of food than previous generations. These are the future if we want allotments to continue in the future. I remember the excitement when I was able to take the first crops home and eat them and I think we ought to give young people the chance to experience that because that is something that stays with you for a lifetime.

[Psi (Pronounced 'Si'!)]

Well my experience was a lot different from grawrc. I had the older ones on my gardening club. There was a lot of this "strong in t'arm but thick in t'head" with some of them. Not afraid of hard manual graft, in fact they loved it after being stuck in a desk all morning . I remember that the big lads were avid watchers of Gardener's World. At that time it had the woman with the "big tits and no bra" as they quaintly put it.
I would not agree that kids that age don't have the time. The main problem is to keep teenagers usefully occupied and out of trouble. Giving them an opportunity to develop a hobby gives them a sense of achievement and remember the ones who are keen on gardening will be the keenest on doing things that are socially acceptable.
My impression is that the social structure of allotmenteering has changed in recent years. It is no longer an old man's preserve. There are many young adults taking allotments and many women. The younger generation seems to be much more aware and concerned about the ethics and standard of food than previous generations. These are the future if we want allotments to continue in the future. I remember the excitement when I was able to take the first crops home and eat them and I think we ought to give young people the chance to experience that because that is something that stays with you for a lifetime.

Spot on Geoff - indeed the profile of the allomenteer is changing as are some methods and some types of crops.  All the better!

[betula]

A lovely pic Barriedale Nick.   ;D


That is the way I like to see children on Allotments

Well supervised   ;D

[Geoff H]

Spot on Geoff - indeed the profile of the allomenteer is changing as are some methods and some types of crops.  All the better!

Not all of it I think to the benefit. On the allottment site we have set up in our town it is all young families and young people. No old codgers. If I had a plot there I would be the oldest and I am still a way from getting my bus pass.
I miss the old geezers. when I was in my 20s and had my first allottment i learnt a lot from the old guys who were in their 70s and 80s. Some of their techniques I would not use, they were not into organic growing, but i learnt a lot about the best way or easiest way of growing many crops and you don't see it in books. It is the passing on of knowledge down the generations that our new site has not got.

[Digeroo]

I think it is nice to have a good balance of ages.  We are a new site and have a huge variation is ages.  The site next to me is run but a couple of kids (not goats but from old germanic english) though Dad does most of the serious digging.

We have several 'old codgers' and quite a bevvy of old codgeresses.  All sorts of techniques from traditional rows to techno gardening. 

I think children have plenty of time for hobbies.  I love seeing a child eating a carrot they have just pulled from the soil.  They are often so thrilled by the taste.

[Geoff H]

Thirty years ago it used to be like a men only club. Sometimes I would go down determined not to speak to anyone. I wasn't being unfriendly - its just i wanted to get some work done. The humour could be a bit cruel. They all laughed their socks off when one of the old guys speared his foot with a fork while trying to kill a mole. It was like he had stapled his foot and boot to the ground and we had to dig it out before sending him off to hospital.
You have to watch your language now!