Author Topic: sacraficial planting  (Read 7043 times)

Macy

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2009, 09:26:35 »
Are there any rotation issues with marigolds, or are they alright any/everywhere?

tonybloke

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2009, 15:49:05 »
marigolds are my 'weed of choice' on the allotment, colour all year round (the name calendula' is a hint, 'calendar' is another speling of the same word) no rotation issues at all btw
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1066

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2009, 17:00:02 »
It seems I will have to learn to love marigolds, I like tagets but don't like the french or african marigolds.
Anyway I have a related question - when planting out your cabbages etc do you plant the marigolds in between them, around them at the edges??? This is the bit I don't quite get about sacraficial planting!
Thanks
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tonybloke

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2009, 18:00:23 »
plant them around the cabbages, and between them. butterflies 'taste' with their feet, and if they land on a mix of marigolds and cabbages, they'll go somewhere else to lay their eggs (they love a large cabbage patch to lay their eggs in, guaranteed food for their offspring!) ;)
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Vinlander

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2009, 19:58:18 »
Re: nicotine - I can't think of a less appropriate heading for discussing it, since the whole point of this thread (including my posts) is to avoid sprays - but I'll get round to it here by the end...

I can cover both viewpoints by heartily recommending everyone gets a copy of Lawrence D Hills' "Grow your own fruit and vegetables" it is recently reprinted and I think it's one of the books they can print on demand at Waterstones etc.

It is a brilliant trove of useful cultivation techniques and includes last-resort recipes for home-made solutions against fungi & insects etc.

It is also an organic book from the time when organic growing was a science not a religion.

To make that clearer - anything based on doubt is a science, real science always doubts itself. Any scientist who tells you something's true is probably a very senior one - ie. a politician who occasionally wears a lab coat.

Anything based on what somebody thinks should be true ISN'T SCIENCE (even when, very rarely, it turns out to be true - actually I can't think of an example).

LDH's book is the best antidote to the extremist views we are trapped between as Gardeners - "Anything for a buck" on one hand and on the other hand those who say "never take any risk ever" and "every bug is sacred - save the smallpox virus for posterity".

Still, I don't recommend using nicotine because it can have unforseen consequences.

Even though you have a good idea what it will do to the place it goes (unlike modern synthetics) and have a good idea how long it will take to dissipate (very, very, unlike modern synthetics) you still don't know it won't kill your garden 'pals'.

With nicotine a dying caterpillar might poison a robin even if a dead one won't kill a frog the next day. You won't be condemning your pals or their offspring to a slow death by some neurotoxin that only appears two or three stages down the decomposition, but they might die directly through Murphy's Law. The only thing you can be sure of is that it won't end up in the top predators (hawks, foxes, you, me).

Anyway, here's a link from the US to the same recipe as LDH's: http://www.aselfsufficientlife.com/nicotine-spray-insecticide.html - READ THE ADVICE.

I know this may sound pompous and patronising but forgive me - IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE DARWIN AWARDS ARE THEN DON'T USE THIS SPRAY - I mean it... Look them up on Google, have a good laugh, sit down and re-think.

Any spray that can make insects sick is a major escalation and should only ever be used as a last resort. Never spray before sunset or the bees might get it (though at least the hive won't accumulate nicotine). Sprays that drown pests (soaps) should be tried first because they only hit what you see at the time.

LDH also suggests not making too much at a time because "the safest way to store nicotine is as cigarette ends". Very good advice - it highlights the fact that the flavour of the mixture is the best defence against anything or anyone swallowing it. This was one of the problems with the commercial mixes in the past - though the one mixed with quassia was excellent - it tasted even worse...

Bear in mind that nicotine can go through the skin - fast - so don't let it come into contact with any skin - bare or otherwise - especially thin skin. NEVER WORK IN SPRAY DRIFT OR SPRAY IF THERE'S ANYONE DOWNWIND. A few drops on your fingers won't kill you but wear rubber gloves anyway. It works fast and people's tolerance of nicotine varies wildly - if you get any hint of classic 'first cigarette' symptoms then stop immediately.

Adding soapflakes or soft soap (another 'foliar feed' in its own right) will help against caterpillars.

Good luck and REMEMBER THE DARWIN AWARDS.

PS. The only good thing about Murphy's law is that it occasionally has to work against itself - but it only does that to lull idiots into a false sense of security...
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

tonybloke

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2009, 22:59:43 »
well said Vinlander !!
Anyone who wishes to enter the darwin awards, ..........well go on then!!!   ;) ;D ;D ;D
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1066

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 06:49:21 »
plant them around the cabbages, and between them. butterflies 'taste' with their feet, and if they land on a mix of marigolds and cabbages, they'll go somewhere else to lay their eggs (they love a large cabbage patch to lay their eggs in, guaranteed food for their offspring!) ;)

Thanks for the info and the explanation Tony  :)

InfraDig

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 07:56:30 »
Could I use a mash of nicotiana instead?

saddad

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2009, 08:06:08 »
It should work...  :-\

Levi

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2009, 13:27:07 »
Has anyone found that African or Tagetes work better than our Common Marigold? I'm not partial to them either.  ::)
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PurpleHeather

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2009, 13:47:14 »
Just to put the the cat aoung the pidgins I suppose that every one knows that there are some snails who have no shells and are going around disguised as slugs..


http://www.weichtiere.at/english/gastropoda/terrestrial/slugs.html

1066

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2009, 13:50:29 »
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo !

saddad

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2009, 14:31:29 »
Yes Levi,  I should have said Tagetes or African marigolds...  :-[

Levi

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2009, 20:35:17 »
Yes Levi,  I should have said Tagetes or African marigolds...  :-[

Ya did! Not bein facetious, just wondering what the difference was, mainly cos I actually like the Common Marigold and hoped they would too ....
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Flighty

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2009, 20:45:12 »
Levi common Pot Marigolds, which I also like, attract bees, butterflies and hoverflies whereas Tagetes (French or African) help repel soil nematodes and whitefly from tomatoes.
Flighty's plot,  http://flightplot.wordpress.com,  is my blog.

I support the Gardening with Disabilities Trust, http://www.gardeningwithdisabilitiestrust.org.uk

saddad

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2009, 21:06:52 »
I have used Pot marigolds around brassica beds as well... they help in the summer by attracting other insects like Lacewings... but I find as the seasons draws to an end they get too much mildew...  :)

Vinlander

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Re: sacraficial planting
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2009, 22:00:18 »
Thanks Tonybloke - I try to restrain myself normally (and probably fail miserably) but this time I thought I had an excuse to let rip in the common good.

My only regret is that I forgot to reiterate that though nicotine is dangerous, modern synthetics are far worse.

At least with nicotine you know that the minute you stop spraying all risk to you has ended. That's it, you're clean and safe. With synthetics you don't know what's going to happen in 1 or 5 or 10 years.

Remember benlate - it really was harmless to the workers, as advertised, but imagine how they felt when it affected their unborn children.

I hope that all new synthetics are safe but the fact is that so far I can't think of any that are still permitted - except the ones that only came out a few years ago - and most of them (like neonicotinoids) are in serious doubt.

I suppose permethrin is still going but there are still doubts emerging.

Permethrin does show a middle path though - take something tried and trusted to be non-toxic like pyrethrum and twist it as little as possible. However I'd prefer it if they just found a way to make real pyrethrum but cheaper.

Cheers.
With a microholding you always get too much or bugger-all. (I'm fed up calling it an allotment garden - it just encourages the tidy-police).

The simple/complex split is more & more important: Simple fertilisers Poor, complex ones Good. Simple (old) poisons predictable, others (new) the opposite.

 

anything
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