Topic: No Dig

[tonybloke]

thanks for the link, earlypea.

[charlesdowding]

First of all, sorry for mistaking your name earlypea! Cowpeas are edible and much grown in Africa.
I have just posted an article by Val Bourne from December's Grow It! magazine, where she compares digging and not digging: it is under articles on my site. She is a digger at heart but is now having a go at being an inbetweeny.
I think that it is difficult to give up digging when you have always done it and earlypea makes a good point about the relative difficulty of sowing some seeds directly into a mulch of compost. It is another skill to learn, achieving a good undug tilth. This year I have had some failures, mainly carrots, but other carrots came up well as did spinach, parsnips, leeks, mustards and leaf radish all sown direct.
Psi, it is possible to get soil clean - I have achieved it on many different plots with horrible weeds present in the first few months. A year of totally light excluding mulch is the most drastic option but is worth it for long term ease and success.
Earlypea, when I dig my dug beds I dig a trench 9" deep (put that soil in a large wheelbarrow), spread compost/manure at the bottom of this trench, then turn another trench-worth of soil onto that, then fill the new trench with compost etc, until reaching the end where the last trench is filled from the wheelbarrow. More work than spreading compost on top!
I am now off to harvest some nice hearts of red cabbage, grown as a second crop after early potatoes, and to prune some apple trees, even though they have barely lost their leaves.

[earlypea]

Earlypea, when I dig my dug beds I dig a trench 9" deep (put that soil in a large wheelbarrow), spread compost/manure at the bottom of this trench, then turn another trench-worth of soil onto that, then fill the new trench with compost etc, until reaching the end where the last trench is filled from the wheelbarrow. More work than spreading compost on top!

You see, I find that a very odd way to do it considering there's not much soil life down there.  I know I'm a only a shallow digger  and would attempt to mix compost/manure into the first few inches where the soil is most active.

I don't believe the diggers even do do that.  Don't they mix it in with the soil so that it's broken down?  I know a lot of them mulch and then mix it in in the spring and then mulch further in the summer.  Isn't what you are doing 'trenching' which would only be done for beans (not with manure)?

Anyway, in essence you don't seem to be replicating the digging that I see diggers do.

(Don't worry about the Cowpea - I find I quite like it!)

[Robert_Brenchley]

I tried doing that (with autumn leaves) when I first had my plot. After a year, I found I was digging up the same old leaves, apparently unchanged. Once they were on the surface, they disappeared quite fast. This went on for a couple of years, and eventually I tried mulching. The same dead leaves go on this time of year, and disappear completely by midsummer.

[shaun01]

if you employ the no dig method on your allotment how do you harvest your potato's  ;D

[star]

Ive grown no dig potatoes under plastic........the spuds actually grow near the surface and ya really dont need to dig!! But grown under thick mulch they do tend to develop deeper. So yep need a spade to get them up.

The term no dig means.... no cultivate.....as the top few inches are full of living organisms and micro organisms. Its a perfect balanced substrate for growing plants into.

But even no dig needs spade attention for deep rooted weeds and harvesting some crops ;D

[Psi (Pronounced 'Si'!)]

I've layered more manure and seaweed on my raised beds - loads of worm action and slowly being taken down into the soil - looks like it is working.  I am now hopeful for planting into the perfect soil come spring!  Just hope I can resist the temptation to dig!!!

[manicscousers]

I've layered more manure and seaweed on my raised beds - loads of worm action and slowly being taken down into the soil - looks like it is working.  I am now hopeful for planting into the perfect soil come spring!  Just hope I can resist the temptation to dig!!!

snap, manure and compost but no temptation

[earlypea]

The same dead leaves go on this time of year, and disappear completely by midsummer.

Mine have disappeared already, but then I found them - everywhere except where I'd mulched with them  ::)

[Digeroo]

Thanks to everyone for all the comments enjoying this thread.

I had decided to give it a go with one bed.  But I am concerned that the worms will not take it down deep enough to retain the moisture in the soil during dry spells.

I wonder perhaps whether this method depends on the type of soil and the position of the water table.

Certainly a lot less trouble than digging it in.  Still concerned by lack of worms.

[earlypea]

Still concerned by lack of worms.

Digeroo, I think you mentioned in other threads that you use liquid feeds on your vegetables, sorry if I'm mistaken about that.

If that's the case it is said that because some of those are made up of mild 'salts' they may either kill worms (think salt on slugs) by scorching them or the worms move away from earth treated with this kind of thing, depending on the source you read.

It's hotly contested and I've googled around trying to find whether this is based on research or not so I can't say for sure, but could that be your problem?  That is part of the no-dig idea.

I had a serious deficiency of worms myself in spring and summer whether dug or undug but now it's cooler and WETTER they've been breeding like rabbits.

[Digeroo]

I use very little liquid feed, mostly comfrey.  I did use some on one patch of beans which had turned yellow, but actually that patch has more worms than elsewhere.

I have been bussing them in.  Taken a handful from the garden and then found that piles of rotting leaves are full of them, so taken some of those as well.

The basic problem is that the land had had pigs on it which had eaten all the worms, and it is taking a time for them to wriggle back. 

[earlypea]

I'm really sorry, must be mistaking you for someone else.  It was their carrots, some feed with undecipherable initials BSB or something.

[tonybloke]

you may find this book interesting?
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F1357&viewtype=image&pageseq=1
worms need partially decayed plant matter to live / breed in. by adding more leafmould, compost, partially rotted manure, etc, you will increase the population (of worms)

the fertiliser you were on about is Blood, Fish & Bone (BFB), and yes, it will 'burn' worms epidermis. ;)

[earlypea]

the fertiliser you were on about is Blood, Fish & Bone (BFB)

Thanks, another mystery solved.
The book link is fun, never seen the original before just quotes - but I think it'll be another million years before I evolve the right neck muscles to read it online  :)

[greenstar]

I find the whole no dig debate really interesting, but have a problem in that we have no worms - there is a serious problem with NZ flatworms on our site and any effort to increase the number of worms seems to increase the number of flatworms as well.  Is there any way around this?  My knowledge of no dig is fairly limited, but I assume you need worms for it to work?

[chriscross1966]

you may find this book interesting?
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F1357&viewtype=image&pageseq=1
worms need partially decayed plant matter to live / breed in. by adding more leafmould, compost, partially rotted manure, etc, you will increase the population (of worms)

the fertiliser you were on about is Blood, Fish & Bone (BFB), and yes, it will 'burn' worms epidermis. ;)

I'd have thought a worm would eat BFB..... it's just ground-up dead things after all.....

[earlypea]

I've been wondering the same about the BFB?  Could upset the balance of the soil but I don't see how it would burn worms?  I was referring to those toxic looking liquid fertilizers like Miracle Grow/Growmore.

Something else I've been wondering for a while is whether cheap bagged compost with 'added nutrients' has a bad effect on worm populations.  Does anyone know what form those added nutrients are in?  Sometimes I run out of my own and think that's better than nothing.  It never has a very positive effect in comparison to home compost, but that could just be the lack of beneficial bacteria/fungi rather than some other problem with it.

Greenstar - I was reading (in the book "Teaming with Microbes") that NZ flatworm populations are increased as a result of spreading steaming manure on beds rather than letting it age fully.  Apparantly it's a big problem in some parts of the US.  Didn't realise we had them here.  Can't remember what else it said, maybe I'll look later...

[tonybloke]

you may find this book interesting?
http://darwin-online.org.uk/content/frameset?itemID=F1357&viewtype=image&pageseq=1
worms need partially decayed plant matter to live / breed in. by adding more leafmould, compost, partially rotted manure, etc, you will increase the population (of worms)


try it and see? put some BFB in a hole, drop a worm on it and watch it try to get off of the BFB.
whilst BFB may be good for plants, organic matter is definitely the best for worms

the fertiliser you were on about is Blood, Fish & Bone (BFB), and yes, it will 'burn' worms epidermis. ;)

I'd have thought a worm would eat BFB..... it's just ground-up dead things after all.....

try it and see. drop some BFB into a hole in the ground, add a worm, and watch it try to move away, pretty pronto!!
Organic matter is what worms need, not concentrates, whether organic or not. Guano is organic, but will burn your skin!!

[Digeroo]

I am rather concerned about the suggestion that BFB upsets worms big time.  Though having said that I have used it in the garden and still have a plentiful supply of wrigglies there.

Is there a way to use it that minimises the worm damage.  Does it also upset slugs?  What is the alternative?

Certainly my carrots seemed to love BFB.  Best carrots ever.