Topic: olivade tomatoes

[angle shades]

 :) I love Plants of Distinction, I always get 100% germination rate with them, I don't care how much they charge and you get a free packet of seed for ordering from them ;D / shades x

[mpdjulie]

Obviously my post is a little irrelevant but I use Kings Seeds.  Although they don't have olivade tomato seeds for sale, their prices for all other veg is very competitive I think.
http://www.kingsseeds.com/katalogue-S/1/VEGETABLES

[amphibian]

They are hybrids, saved seed will not come true.

About time we dehybridised the variety then, if anyone has saved some seed from the F1, I'd be happy to attempt to dehybridise them.

[Eristic]

I'm willing to try as well. Something useful to do next year instead of crossing mangel worzels with Detroit beetroot.

[Barnowl]

By the way, for the second year in a row, my Olivade from Simpsons have produced larger fruit than those from T&M grown at the same time in the same way - odd.

[amphibian]

By the way, for the second year in a row, my Olivade from Simpsons have produced larger fruit than those from T&M grown at the same time in the same way - odd.

Which suggests the seed are not being produced by the same cross. If indeed they are true F1s at all.

[Robert_Brenchley]

Not necessarily odd at all, and you'd expect them to be different from the original if it is a cross. The original hybrid may be designed for something other than maximum size, or you could be selecting the plants with the largest fruit for seed saving. Save seed from the plant you feel is best every year, and you'll soon have your own similar variety.

[Chrispy]

By the way, for the second year in a row, my Olivade from Simpsons have produced larger fruit than those from T&M grown at the same time in the same way - odd

Did you buy new seed each time? If yes, then I would agree there seems to be something odd about their production.

[Chrispy]

By the way, for the second year in a row, my Olivade from Simpsons have produced larger fruit than those from T&M grown at the same time in the same way - odd.

Errr.. or is it odd (nothing like a bit of digging to get the old grey cells working).
I know that if I buy a plant that has a bred and has a copyright then I am not allowed to take cutting to produce new plants and then sell them.
Also I know that farmers who grow a crop from seed that has a copyright, then they are not allowed to plant seed from their crop, but have to buy new seed (or they can plant their own seed once then but new).

From this I assumed that if you buy a modern seed variety, who ever you buy it from is basically the same, with only minor variations due to how well they are produced.

Is this true? If I am a seed producer, and I breed a plant that has the same characteristics as somebody elses, am I then allowed to call it the same? I would not have thought so, but.......

[Chrispy]

Well here is a wiki page that explains plant copyright.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Union_for_the_Protection_of_New_Varieties_of_Plants

There is an interesting line....

There are explicit exceptions to the rights of the breeder, known as the "breeder's exemption clause", that make it unnecessary to receive authorization for the use of a protected variety where those rights interfere in the use of the variety for a private individual's non-monetary benefit, or the use of the variety for further research.

I won't comment any more, got to get some work done before my head explodes.

[valmarg]

I'm willing to try as well. Something useful to do next year instead of crossing mangel worzels with Detroit beetroot.

About time we dehybridised the variety then, if anyone has saved some seed from the F1, I'd be happy to attempt to dehybridise them.

Well, I'm sure you are both ready to take advantage of other A4A's efforts.

Eristic you have ridiculed me for really liking the Olivade variety of tomato.  Telling me I've being ripped off.  Well, that's as maybe.

You and ? amphibian would be quite happy to accept saved seeds from Olivade growers.

I have a wonderful, extremely ripe Olivade tomato, which would suit your bill.  But why should I bother.

If you want to dehybridise the variety, I suggest you buy the seeds, grow them, and then 'dehybridise' them

valmarg

[Eristic]

Eristic you have ridiculed me for really liking the Olivade variety of tomato.  Telling me I've being ripped off.  Well, that's as maybe.

Well pardon me for breathing!

Nowhere did I ridicule you or anybody else, including the tomato. I have no doubt that the tomato has excellent merits but the seed is overpriced.

If ever I produce anything that has merit, or potential merit I share freely with my colleagues and while I never ask for anything in return everything and anything given to me is accepted gratefully.

Why get so uptight?

[valmarg]

Sorry Eristic, I did get a bit 'uptight' reading my post in the cold light of dawn, but I can't seem to get across to you that the yield per plant makes it an excellent variety to grow.

I've paid c. 20p per seed, but have had an absolutely wonderful crop.  Having collected many fruits this year, the last plant in the greenhouse has about 15lbs of fruit on it.  Unfortunately they are all green at the moment, but working on ripening them ;D.

I would agree the T&M price of 58p per plant is way over the top, ie nearly three times what I am paying.

I could, perhaps, send you a few seeds out of my packet of 50 so that you will understand why I'm so enthusiastic about the variety.

Sorry for getting so uptight.  Promise I'll take more water with it next time. ;D ;D

valmarg

[amphibian]

Well, I'm sure you are both ready to take advantage of other A4A's efforts.

Eristic you have ridiculed me for really liking the Olivade variety of tomato.  Telling me I've being ripped off.  Well, that's as maybe.

You and ? amphibian would be quite happy to accept saved seeds from Olivade growers.

I have a wonderful, extremely ripe Olivade tomato, which would suit your bill.  But why should I bother.

If you want to dehybridise the variety, I suggest you buy the seeds, grow them, and then 'dehybridise' them

valmarg

Wow, that is just oddly venomous, but I am sure it is a misunderstanding. I frequently partake in other peoples breeding projects, it is common in the amateur breeding world. I would not stand to benefit from other people's efforts at all, quite the opposite I was offering to make an effort for other people.

To dehybridise a hybrid is a long and drawn out process, that requires a lot of space and is best performed by multiple people to maximise space. I was offering, as a favour, to help dehybridise an F1, so that those that love the Olivade tomato can grow it year on year off, with stabalised open pollinating seed, which they can save and thus avoid the need to pay commercial suppliers exorbitant amounts for the F1 seed in the first place.

Sure, I could buy some Olivade seed, grow them out, save some seed, sow the f2 seed and start the process myself, but why would I bother, I am not an Olivade grower and this process would then cost an extra season. I was not offering to help out for my own benefit, I was offering to help out for the benefit of those that like the Olivade and are forced to pay these huge prices.

I suspect you have entirely misunderstood what exactly I am offering to do, and whom it would benefit. So I will explain carefully.

Currently Olivade is an F1 tomato, this means it is produced using seed from a cross. If you plant the seed saved from Olivade you will get very mixed results, maybe tomatoes of every colour, shape and form that exist. However somewhere among those plants will be some that shows all the characteristics of Olivade, through a careful selection process over many seasons we could reach the point where saved seed produce the 'Olivade' tomato every single time, these seeds can then be distributed freely without the F1 price tag.

Who benefits, everyone. Because everyone can then enjoy Olivade's qualities without being forced to turn to the expensive F1 suppliers. How do I benefit directly, I don't. I've just used my space and time to help the global tomato growing community.

Anyway, I am sure you're a lovely person that has just misunderstood what I was offering and was left feeling defensive because you perceived people were taking the mick out of you or something. I am still quite happy to add this project to my schedule for next year, if someone has saved seeds, but if not, it doesn't matter, I have many other projects on the go and my space is always at a premium.

Hope this has not come across as confrontational, it is meant to be quite the opposite.

[valmarg]

Sorry amphibian, but its nothing to do with venomous or vitriol, it was pure irritation.

I had been trying to sayI was prepared to pay the price per seed, simply because the yield of the plant more that repaid the price of the seed.

Eristic more or less told me that I was a fool to be buying such expensive seeds.

Then, Eristic and yourself said you would be happy to receive saved seeds from the likes of myself, in order that you could dehybridise the variety.

So I'm the silly bugger that buys th expensive seeds.  Grows the tomatoes, saves the seed, and sends them to you free gratis and for nothing.

I don't think things work quite like that.

I'm quite happy to send you saved seed from the Oivade plants, but they would be at a price.

Your posting amphibian assumes that I do not know what dehybridising means, rather than being  confrontational, I think your posting was xtremely patronising.

[amphibian]

Sorry amphibian, but its nothing to do with venomous or vitriol, it was pure irritation.

I had been trying to sayI was prepared to pay the price per seed, simply because the yield of the plant more that repaid the price of the seed.

Eristic more or less told me that I was a fool to be buying such expensive seeds.

Then, Eristic and yourself said you would be happy to receive saved seeds from the likes of myself, in order that you could dehybridise the variety.

So I'm the silly bugger that buys th expensive seeds.  Grows the tomatoes, saves the seed, and sends them to you free gratis and for nothing.

I don't think things work quite like that.

I'm quite happy to send you saved seed from the Oivade plants, but they would be at a price.

Your posting amphibian assumes that I do not know what dehybridising means, rather than being  confrontational, I think your posting was xtremely patronising.

There is definitely a bee firmly lodged in your bonnet. Look, I don't want your seeds, and I certainly don't want to pay anyone any money for seeds. I give seeds away all the time and have received likewise, that is the ethos here and on every gardening fora I use.

I was offering to do something for YOU (and other olivade growers), not for something from you.

So you understand what dehybridising is. Great. Yet you clearly do not understand how you stand to benefit from the dehybridising of your prized cultivar or you wouldn't have the gaul to ask me for money when I was offering to do you a favour.

All I was asking for, and not specifically from you, was a few seeds saved from an olivade tomato, these represent a waste product to anyone that grows from fresh F1 seed each season.

So Eristic irritated you, what's that got to do with me? Though for what it is worth, Eristic said the prices charged are a disgrace, which is true. You replied to him with "Calm down dear"... and you call me patronising!

The whole tone of your posting is as if I was out to rip you off or something.

This is a very sad carry on, it really is.

[valmarg]

No bee in bonnet amphibian.

How many years will it take you to dehybridise Olivade? (always assuming you will not be breaching the copyright laws according to conthehill), and will it be worth the effort?.

In the meantime, I am more than happy to buy the seed.

What you are proposing (the dehybridisation) could be fraudulent, insofar as you would be denying the original breeder their royalties.

Quite apart from anything else, you would be producing seed of a somewhat iffy calibre.  Personally I would prefer to pay the extortionate seed companies prices.

valmarg

[Baccy Man]

Valmarg, what will you do if the seed companies decide not to offer olivade in the future. Varieties are dropped from catalogues all the time for numerous reasons. Would you settle for another variety or would you try to dehybridise it yourself so you could continue growing the variety you actually want to grow.

[saddad]

I've kept out of this... I only grow "sungold" as F1...
but if it's a variety that suits you what can you do if they choose not to supply it...  :-[

[amphibian]

How many years will it take you to dehybridise Olivade? (always assuming you will not be breaching the copyright laws according to conthehill), and will it be worth the effort?.

It would take years, and a lot of patience (if indeed olivade is a real f1, many so called f1s are no such thing) but if the prize is a super yielding tasty open pollinating tomato, what of it? Years, even lifetimes are what us gardeners deal with all the time. Gardening takes enormous patience and breeding takes a little vision. Personally I see all of us, us growers and breeders, as one global community, who help out and do things not just for us, but for future generations and for the maintenance of biodiversity. Seriously, breeders got everything from Brussels to cauliflower from the same ancestor. What if they'd just shrugged and said there was no point, it might take years?

As for the copyright, there is none. You cannot copyright an F1, the propriety of F1s is maintained not trough copyright but through secrecy.

In the meantime, I am more than happy to buy the seed.

...and. If they stop selling them?

What you are proposing (the dehybridisation) could be fraudulent, insofar as you would be denying the original breeder their royalties.

You are so, so wrong, I am afraid you have misunderstood the legislation if you think a breeder can copyright an F1. You can only claim intellectual property rights on a stable homozygous cultivar and even then only if it represents something distinct, unless you're talking about GM, but that is a different kettle of fish, and is not what we are discussing.

Quite apart from anything else, you would be producing seed of a somewhat iffy calibre.  Personally I would prefer to pay the extortionate seed companies prices.

Iffy, how so?

Do you not realise that virtually every open pollinating tomato variety that exists was bred by amateur breeders, and that the seed catalogues just pillage the Seed Savers Exchange yearbook to find new varieties?

If you do know this, then what would make my seed iffy?

Are all exchanged seeds iffy, or would it be my breeding work you deem iffy?

Seed companies regularly fail to provide seed that germinate reliably or come true.