Topic: Bindweed Problem Question

[Mr Smith]

My bindweed problem is certainly not as bad as it was last year after treating it with professional Roundup, the weed is  smaller and weaker this time round, so I will blitz it again with professional Roundup, :)

[Barnowl]

When it's in among your perennials - in our case  raspberries, I think the plastic bag method is the safest. There's no spray drift and since you don't undo the bag once the weed is dead (just dump the whole thing into the bin) the amount taken into the soil is minimised.

We dig out as much as we can at the beginning of the season when it first appears then encourage those we've missed, or couldn't get at, to climb up bamboo poles - makes it easier to unwind and stuff into the bag.

[tonybloke]

For those worried about glyphosate toxicity, the best advice is not to drink it, especially the concentrate.  We take a nice flask of tea down to the allotment instead.

do you work for monsanto?
what a crass statement to make. there's plenty of evidence about harmful effects of roundup, check it out if you really want to know what your feeding your family.
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/glyphosa.htm
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/DMPGR.php
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7876346_Glyphosate_poisoning
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

[pigeonseed]

I was thinking of using glyphosate as well, but I read that the chemicals which are often added to glyphosate (eg surfactants to make it spread and stick to the leaves) can be environmentally harmful.

And also as many on here have said, glyphosate isn't a no-work solution to weeds either - you have to apply it carefully, often several applications will be required.

If there's one thing to say for bindweed, it's quite satisfying pulling it and having so much come out of the ground at once. It's like squeezing spots.  ;)

[Melbourne12]

For those worried about glyphosate toxicity, the best advice is not to drink it, especially the concentrate.  We take a nice flask of tea down to the allotment instead.

do you work for monsanto?
....
etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

I don't, as it happens, but I'd be quite happy to.

But bad science makes me laugh.

[Unwashed]

But bad science makes me laugh.

Laughing's good, but you don't have to be facile.  Monsanto lied about the product when they brought it to market and it's been shown to be less benign than they made out.  If you want to inform the debate then refute what you disagree with, 'cos most of us here are pretty open minded.

[Squash64]

We have a plotholder on our site who used to sell Roundup concentrate for £11 per litre.  As a result of this, many people bought it from him.  The man with the plot next to his has blanket sprayed at least half of his plot, not targetted individual weeds.  I will try to take a photo of it if it ever stops raining, it looks like there has been a chemical spillage on an industrial scale.  :'(

[Robert_Brenchley]

We've had people doing that several times; it reduces the plot concerned to a sorry state, then the more noxious weeds, which aren't killed, come back, and the last state of that plot is worse than the first.

[Eristic]

Why is it bad science to be concerned about our health?

Roundup just might be totally harmless but there is no cure for Parkinsons Disease or dementure.

[Melbourne12]

But bad science makes me laugh.

Laughing's good, but you don't have to be facile.  Monsanto lied about the product when they brought it to market and it's been shown to be less benign than they made out.  If you want to inform the debate then refute what you disagree with, 'cos most of us here are pretty open minded.

Oh, good response.

I'm pretty open minded too.  Rather than refute silly accusations, I'll let you go first.  Produce some good science that refutes the safety certification, and I'll be all ears.

But until then, I'll not believe that glyphosate is more dangerous than the official safety stats say.  And I'm afraid that I don't believe that George Bush demolished the twin towers with thermite, or that the moon landings were staged, or that Elvis is alive and well.

[Unwashed]

Melbourne, there's a good argument to be made in favour of glyphosate, but you're not making it.  There isn't good evidence of acute toxicity, but you didn't say that, you made fun.  However, there is evidence of problems with glyphosate, and tonybloke has referenced some reports, so if you're argument is stronger than name-calling, let's hear it.

[Melbourne12]

Melbourne, there's a good argument to be made in favour of glyphosate, but you're not making it.  There isn't good evidence of acute toxicity, but you didn't say that, you made fun.  However, there is evidence of problems with glyphosate, and tonybloke has referenced some reports, so if you're argument is stronger than name-calling, let's hear it.

My argument is simply as strong as the regulatory authorities that police the use of pesticides.  I believe that the tests that are done to satisfy the regulations are properly carried out, and are checked for authenticity.  Indeed, they have to be repeated on a set timetable.

So that seems to me to be clear on one side of the case.

And on the other?  Well, first we have to be convinced that there's some sort of conspiracy or cover up.  I suppose the picture in people's minds is of top-hatted capitalists sitting round a boardroom table salivating at the though of the needless deaths that their quest for a dishonest penny will bring.  Have any of you really encountered such rogues running a large organisation?  I don't mean, can you imagine it?  I mean, have you personally experienced it?

Second, we have to look at the evidence.  It's interesting that of the three links that tonybloke gave, two summarised the evidence quite well, and if you read them, gave glyphosate a clean bill of health.  Only if you chug the concentrate or splash it in your eyes will it harm you.

The third link, to ISIS, is to a politically driven site, dedicated to "exposing" the wickedness of big pharma and promoting Green Party issues.  Now don't get me wrong.  I'm as up for a political debate as the next man, but the way you vote has very little to do with the health of your tomatoes or the problem of getting rid of bindweed.  Attempting to combine the two leads us straight back to that fantasy world of boardroom Frankensteins and the inevitable paranoia that follows.

Just a couple more points, if I may.  It's a favoured technique of bad science to "prove" that something is poisonous by dousing mammalian cells with it in vitro.  I don't have any real doubt that endocrine disruption does indeed occur if you splash Roundup on umbilical cord samples.  It just bears no relationship to the real world.  What do you think would happen if you squirted brown sauce onto the same samples?  Do you think that HP Sauce should be banned?  Is the suppression of such vital information a conspiracy by the bacon buttie industry? **

Finally, I notice that we're now starting to worry about "surfactants", accused of being the real villains in the alleged toxicity of Roundup formulations.  And yet how many people will quite cheerfully get rid of blackfly with a spray of washing up liquid in water, and congratulate themselves on being "organic" by not using a horrid chemical.



** Brown sauce is indeed poisonous, by the way. Many moons ago, when I was a college, a fellow student took a bet to drink a pint of brown sauce.  He won his bet, but shortly afterwards became unconscious and spent several extreemely uncomfortable days in hospital.

[Unwashed]

How can you argue that the regulatory authorities are infallible when they ban products that previously they passed as fit for use?  The best you can say for a licensed product is that it has not yet been found to be unacceptably harmful, or if it has then there's no less harmful alternative.  History shows that it can take many years to discover the harmful effects, and the regulatory authorities are not always swift to act - the harmful surfactant in Roundup is a case in point.

Nice straw man by the way.

[Tee Gee]

Now then boys and girls, calm down!!  ::)

Like many things,( in my opinion)  it is what it is used for and how it is used that is key!

We supposedly have freedom of choice to use many things, weedkillers included, and other things we might have no choice.

For instance; people with heart problems invariably have no choice ( if they want to remain alive) but to take 'Warfarin'  (Rat poison) for blood thinning, or Trinitrate (Nitro glycerine) for angina attacks etc. but it comes back to; ; it is what it is used for and how it is used that is key!

Here we have something of a 'personal choice'  that is; to use it or not!

So as I  see it;  if things are kept in perspective 'a little of what you fancy does you good' and if you want to use a weedkiller to do something good for you that is fine but do we have to have these 'set toos' when all some people are doing is giving THEIR opinion on using or not using a product.

Personally; I try to not get involved in these debates where it is simply one persons opinion against another and I get a bit brassed off when people get their hair off about situations like these.

There!! I have said my bit ! so heres hoping I haven't aggravated the situation even more.

BTW I generally like the content of debates like these, because some people do research their replies, and the information they give is  generally quite interesting and often educational which I like, its the 'heated' debate I can do without!

[Melbourne12]

How can you argue that the regulatory authorities are infallible when they ban products that previously they passed as fit for use?  The best you can say for a licensed product is that it has not yet been found to be unacceptably harmful, or if it has then there's no less harmful alternative.  History shows that it can take many years to discover the harmful effects, and the regulatory authorities are not always swift to act - the harmful surfactant in Roundup is a case in point.

.....

But I didn't say that they were infallible.  Merely that the regulatory framework and its accompanying tests formed one side of the case, and a clear one.  I realise that times change.  I have a copy of the Food & Drugs Regs from the 1920s that limits the amount of arsenic in beer.  Then it was acceptable to have traces of arsenic in your pint, now it isn't.  We've moved on.

But had I been alive in the 1920s, I would have enjoyed my pint of bitter with an easy mind.  Just as I enjoy it now.  I don't shun pubs because I'm frightened that the allowable amount of carcinogens in malt will cause me to die.  Even though it's entirely possible that some future regulations will limit the amount of torrefaction of barley or ban patent black malt entirely.

Pace Tee Gee, I hope this isn't regarded as heated debate.  I rather thought we were all being quite civilised.

[OllieC]

I hope that people who don't use glyphosate products only buy organic produce - because it's used routinely on pretty much everything. I know with Asparagus it's sprayed when the soil temp is about 8 C, and with most annual crops it's sprayed a couple of weeks before sowing...

I use it sometimes but not on anywhere I'll be harvesting within the next few months. I would love to be organised enough not to use it but I'm not. And any residues will be lower than if we bought the food.

I would add that for an awfully long time, the exposure to residues on apples was based on a sample of 8 individual apples, and I would not trust the authorities in the slightest as there is a huge amount of commercial pressure.

[BarriedaleNick]

Just one little point Melbourne12 - I wouldnt use washingup liquid to treat blackfly.  Washingup liguid is a detergent not a soap and spraying it on your plants can be very detremental unless it is washed off. Not all surfacants are the same. Some are quite toxic!  I would use a little cold press soap myself.

My main concern with roundup is not that I think it will harm me particularly but the effect it may have on aquatic life.

http://lscgw1.monsanto.com/esh/msdslib.nsf/2B20DAEB04E8631C0625689700650B45/$file/Roundup%20Ultra%203000-5059en-gb.pdf

This is from monsanto and see section 12 for some toxicity data.   
Each to their own I suppose and I do paint a bit of roundup on my bindweed.  I just prefer not to spray it everywhere.

[tim]

No one has mentioned a Weedkiller Stick. How harmful is that?

[gwynnethmary]

I remember once having a bad problem with bindweed coming through from next door's garden into my climbing rose.  I trained it up a bamboo cane, then , wearing a thin rubber glove underneath an old cotton glove, I dipped my fingers into the weedkiller and stroked the weed very thoroughly.  It was a lot easier than using a paintbrush to dab it on, and it worked!  And I'm still alive, and it was a very long time ago!