Topic: Weed Control Fabric

[Jesse]

Does anyone have experience using weed control fabric and is it effective in suppressing couch grass? The spot where I planned to grow my strawberries has the biggest concentration of couch grass on my plot. I have dug out every bit of root that I can find but I'm sure there are lots of pieces that I have missed. I was thinking of growing my strawberries through weed control fabric to avoid any problems later. The couch grass also extends to where I wanted to put my raspberries. Is it possible to grow raspberries through the fabric? Perhaps cut a slit in the fabric along the length of the raspberry row to allow for new canes to emerge. If the couch grass does appear through gaps in the fabric, e.g. where the strawberry plants are planted through the fabric, will I have a problem not being able to get at the roots or can I simply pull the foliage off the couch grass and keep it at bay doing this.

[sandersj89]

I created a strawberry bed this spring on an allotment not used for a number of years. I took the no dig route and covered the area, 4 foot by 15 foot, with black weed control fabric from Kays Horticulture.

The area was infested with bindweed and couch. I laid the fabric and then cut small crosses and planted the strawbs into holes that I added compost, a bit of manure and some blood and bone. Make sure the strawb plant crowns are just proud of the ground so they flower well.

After planting I also cut 12 inch round discs of fabric with one slit from the middle to edge. I tucked these around the plants under the main sheet of fabric. Some weeds do poke their heads through but is seconds work to pull them.

The fabric also keeps the soil of the strawbs.

HTH

Jerry

[Hugh_Jones]

Both couch grass and bindweed, if covered, will simply grow sideways under the cover until they find daylight.  Couch grass will quite easily traverse the underside of a 4ft wide concrete path, and bindweed will travel much further.  As long as the shoots eventually find daylight the roots will continue to thrive and spread.

Some time ago there was a posting on the BBC boards from someone who had taken over an allotment which had been covered with black polythene for nearly two years.  When this was removed the whole soil surface was found to be covered with a mat of white bindweed shoots.

[sandersj89]

Both couch grass and bindweed, if covered, will simply grow sideways under the cover until they find daylight.  Couch grass will quite easily traverse the underside of a 4ft wide concrete path, and bindweed will travel much further.  As long as the shoots eventually find daylight the roots will continue to thrive and spread.

I agree in part though I have had no problems so far with it creeping out from under the fabric. On three sides of the bed I have worked the ground so no roots outside of the fabric. Very little top growth has poked out around the fabric and what does is quickly dealt with. The 4th side is a grass path, I have worked a small strip along this edge and cut the grass path edges as you would a lawn. Also any growth that emerges from the sides is quickly dealt with.

Therefore constant removal of the top growth will continue to weaken the plant. Only so much starch is stored for energy in the plants roots and this will be exhausted over a year or so. And don't forget the advantages of the fabric such as reducing the time spent weeding, moisture conservation and heating the soil in the spring, protecting the fruit from soil splash etc. Weeding my bed this year took only 5 or 10 minutes a month and we picked pounds of strawbs from maiden plants and plants sown from seed in feb.

Jerry

[tim]

If we mean 'Plantex' etc - type-designed stuff - yes. The weeds grew fabulously under it! I put pictures on the board.

What I had not seen was that it has to be covered with mulch, gravel or slabs!! = Tim

[sandersj89]

This is the stuff I used:

http://www.hy-tex.co.uk/ht_agr_gc.html

Tougher than the stuff you lay under mulches and little or no light penetration. I also have a no dig bed at home with Courgettes/pumpkins in this year. No weeding required at all.

Jerry

[Jesse]

I have bought Permealay, this is what it says:

"Permealay is a heavy duty, spun-bonded polypropylene fabric, which is permeable to air, moisture and nutrients. It prevents light getting through, thereby suppressing weeds. Less watering is required as moisture is retained. Use in the greenhouse, vegetable garden or strawberry beds to deter the slugs and keep the fruit clean, dry and mud free! Very strong - can also be used for pathways. Better than plastic sheets for mulching, particularly if given a decorative bark covering."

I also have some other weed control fabric that says to use with a mulch, it's called Plantex, same as your one Tim.

I think I'm going to try the route of using the weed control because if I don't then this couch grass is going to grow up amongst my strawbs and how on earth do I dig it out when I've got strawb plants all around, surely I'll end up digging them up too?

And what about raspberries, it is possible to grow them through this or will I suppress too many new canes?

[Hugh_Jones]

Jerry, I hope your optimnism is justified, but I regret that I cannot share it, and I have had many years of experience of bindweed.

  In 1941 my parents bought a house which had a concreted area at the back - approx 20ft square, with flower borders around the edges, which every year threw up convolvulus shoots, and every year these shoots were religiously removed back as far under the concrete as we could dig.  The concrete had been laid well before the 1939 outbreak of war.  In 1945 we got fed up with continually trying to keep the beds clear of convolvulus, and we broke up and removed the concrete and dug over the soil underneath.  The whole area was a mass of convolvulus roots and blind shoots, and in the end we treated the lot with a half cwt of sodium chlorate and repeated the treatment the following spring.  That cured it.

[Jesse]

Okay so couch grass may continue growing and emerging where the weed control fabric ends. What happens if I spray the emerging foliage, before pulling it out, with one of those sprays that kill the plant by absorbing the spray from the foliage down to the roots, I've got one at home for thistles and other weeds with long tap roots. Will this kill the couch grass in the end or at least control it?

[Jesse]

This is what I found on the HDRA website:

"Couch is sensitive to shading, however, and when continually shaded the grass gradually dies out."

"Pigs in a moveable pen will root out and consume the rhizomes." - anyone want to loan me some pigs for a couple of weeks?

and on the RHS website:

"Glyphosate-based weedkillers are very effective and, if correctly applied, should kill out even heavy infestations of couch in one application. "

So I think between shading from weed control fabric and using weedkiller for any foliage that emerges I should be able to control this weed.

[sandersj89]

Hugh

I appreciate you experience and have some sympathy. I have fought battles with bindweed, knotweed, marestail, couch, ground elder, black grass, etc over more years than I care to think about and I am only 39!. To date Marestail is my worst enemy. I have conquered all the rest though knot weed took 4 years to finally see off.

Coming from a farming background and with a degree in agriculture I could very easily resort to chemical control, indeed for the knotweed I did. I have also worked in agriculture here in the UK and also in the States and Africa. But I also follow the philosophy that I would prefer to use as little chemical as possible. I am not 100% organic, more like 70% I would guess.

As I have said before on other threads, here and elsewhere, thorough preparation and digging out of the roots is key, bindweed wont extend more than 3 foot down in most cases and couch grass not much more than 18inches. Even digging down 2 spits for bindweed will sort most of it. Bindweed can also not stand constant weeding or removal of top growth. (Have you ever seen bindweed in a lawn?). All top growth needs removal as soon as it appears, hence my objective of weekly weeding with a sharp hoe. (My plot was literally a carpet of bindweed in parts this spring, now I have hardly any showing)

The weed membrane will help, it may take 2 or 3 years to sort to a degree where you can remove the membrane totally but it does help. The length of time requires will depend to some degree on the soil type, heavier soils taking long. (Here in Sussex I am on clay they throw bricks from, in Devon at home on the farm it is more like the Sahara Desert in summer!) Sure weeds will travel and some will seek light over a fair distance but keep working at it, pick, hoe, root out, dig and you will weaken it. No plant can survive without it's leaves for long. The roots only hold so much energy.

Where you hear about marestail re emerging 40 years later for example, which it is capable of doing by the way, you are seeing the result of the plant going into dormancy. The plant has shut down as there is no chance of it emerging into sunlight and replenishing starch/sugars reserves. As soon as conditions change to make it worthwhile it starts throwing up top growth.

I will stand by my recommendation of using a good membrane for the strawberries; it has suppressed my bindweed load this year on new ground and has other benefits that must not be ignored. It is not the cure all that some would like but it helps with those who are time limited and wish to not use chemicals.

Just my opinion.

Jerry

[Hugh_Jones]

Don`t misunderstand me, Jerry. I`m not advocating that you also should dump a half cwt of Sodium chlorate on your bindweed.  I`m as organic as you, and probably for a bit longer, but in 1945 things were a bit different - DDT was soon to become `the saviour of the world` by wiping out the tsetse fly and malarial mosquitos, agent orange hadn`t been invented, and the standard fertilizer on every farm, garden and allotment was National Growmore.

[Sarah-b]

Hugh - you mention Growmore - is that organic or not?

Thanks Sarah.

[Hugh_Jones]

Most definitely not!  National Growmore was originally a wartime invention of the Min. of Ag & Fish (that was before it became DEFRA - the Department for the Eradication of Farming and Rural Activities) to make the best wartime use of `straight` fertilizers by combining them all into one standard fertilizer, which I think basically consisted of Potassium sulphate, ammonium sulphate and superphosphate of lime, with a few twiddly bits thrown in for good measure, had a 7-7-7 formula, and was the only `general` fertilizer available during wartime.  After the end of the war when fertilizer manufacturers were de-regulated the `National` was dropped from the name, and most manufacturers continued to produce Growmore but with their own minor modifications (such as granulating it, altering its constituent chemicals etc) and it has even appeared as a liquid fertilizer with such differing formulae as 20-20-20, 20-10-20 and 6-30-30.  However it remains a most definitely inorganic fertilizer.

(Sorry - I got a bit carried away)

[Garden Manager]

I am a committed convert to the benefits of weed suppressing membrane, and have used it to effect in many areas of my garden. I have three large beds/borders where the plants are growing trough it and have also used it to make paths for light foot traffic (laid on firm soil with gravel on top). i have found it a satisfattory weed suppressant. Ok annual weeds germinate in the mulch on top of it and if you dont over lap enough then some weeds can grow up through the joins. These though are easily removed.

I have found also it is a usefull weapon against my biggest enemy weed wise; bindweed.  My front garden is particularly infested.  Borders covered with 'plantex' mulched and planted up, control it as effectively as having the whole garden laid to grass (which it used to be - BORING!).  I find any bindweed that does emerge is concentrated at the edges of the membrane and can be easily removed. I find also that bindweed grows across the surface of the soil under the membrane, so it is easy enough to lift the membrane and trace the stems and remove at source.

Someone said bind weed wond grow in lawns. OK it doesnt like being mown, but in my front lawn it has adapted to this by growing in a stunted lawn weed like fashion, all the while striving to reach open soil where it can grow properly.

[Jesse]

I spent today finishing off my strawberry bed and covering it over with weed control fabric before planting my strawberries through it. So far so good. But I was wondering what to cover it with, bark chipping (expensive), straw (will it blow away) or soil (which I don't have a lot of)? Or can I leave it without a mulch? The instructions that come with the fabric say that it's porus but when I watered the plants the water seemed to "bead" off the top of the fabric and just sit there in puddles. Will it eventually seep through the fabric? I ended taking the rose off the watering can and pouring the water directly at the roots through the planting hole in the fabric.

[sandersj89]

I have not covered mine with anything, left it bare and the strawbs are happy and so am I as i have picked loads this summer.

When the plantex stuff is new it does shrug the water off for a bit but give it a week or two and it will be fine.

Jerry

[Garden Manager]

Yes water does tend to 'puddle' on top of the plantex when you first water onto it, but it soon seeps through, so dont worry.

I suppose this is where a 'topping' or mulch on top of the fabric helps. Bark or shredded woody prunings (if you have any) are good, though i have my strawberries planted through plantex without a mulch on top.