Topic: cat's toilet..!

[Borlotti]

How do you change the setting to grown-up.  I don't know  :( :(

[cjb02]

go to profile (at top of this page)

Then on the side choose option "Look and Layout preferences"

Then put a tick in "Leave words uncensored."

Just found it now and ticked it.

[carbonel11]

Hi cbj02, in answer to your question I find the most infantile aspect of your arguement the way it postulates a black and white solution to the problem of pets. You seem to believe there is no mid ground between keeping your pet locked up and forcing it to live a feral existance. The vast majority of responsible cat owners opt for mid ground.
Interestingly the latest scientific research postulates that cats far from being domesticated by man simply opted for the increased survival aspect of living alongside the primate not so much for the food he provided in terms of his leftovers but more for the prey potential in the vermin he attracted in his wake. The average cat would be well able to survive without humans but obviously as a wild creature it would be more subject to the laws of nature.
Your priorities seem strange. I find it hard to believe that a true cat friendly person would post against those defending cats and not against those on this thread proposing harm and death to cats for performing the very natural process of defaecation.
Maybe you should rethink your choice of pet ( you could at least take a dog for walks ) however I don't know the ragdoll breed may well have had most natural instincts bred out of it so that it actually enjoys being confined, maybe a selectively bred agrophobia? Doesn't seem right to me but not the animal itself fault either!

[cjb02]

For me it is a black and white solution towards cats and their welfare. A large proportion of the cat population that are left to wonder, come to harm at some point in their lives. There is very little mid ground, I base this down to lots of cat owners who find it quite easy just to say, cats are cats and they need to roam around neighbours hoods freely. No they dont. A large portion of cat owners do not take in to account how many cats are killed and maimed and are happy to just get another kitten when the last pet disappears.

I can easily believe that cats chose to live with primates, cats are very intelligent animals. Humanity has taken that one step further now with the domestic cat because we feed our pet cats. They don't need to hunt but most cats still hunt for entertainment. I have many friends who come home/wake up to find dead or half dead animals in their respective homes. These are very rarely eaten just mauled to death over long periods of time.

I am not posting against any one, I am merely trying to champion the cause of animal welfare. What I respect about people who dont like cats even when whey propose harm against cats is their honesty. What I respect about genuine cat lovers is the time and money they devote to another animal. What frustrates me about a lot of cat owners is their total and utter lack of respect for other people in their own communities and respect for cats. Lots of cat owners do no neuter, do not vaccinate and allow their pets to roam with scant regard for the cats safety or the comfort of other people, other animals and other cats.

The aim being to improve cat welfare with a side benefit of gardeners not finding cat poo in their garden and having more birds flying around.

Why would I rethink my choice of pets? My pets are safe, have good health care and an excellent diet. They are happy, content and happy to turn our home in to race track and assault course at their whim. My neighbours are happy and I have birds in my garden.

[carbonel11]

No, your wrong again !

Your post yet again fails to impress, You respect the honesty of those who propose harm to cats !!! Yet feel you are a champion of cat welfare , Your logic is certainly impossible to discern.

Cats are entertained by their kill you say, again a childish logic, your anthromorphic view of cats playing with their kills does not recognise the pure instinct in this. They are practising and honing techniques for the next kill. They are obeying their normal instincts here not making sapient decisions on which they can be judged.

You decry the responsible cat owner who allows their cat the access to outside and inside on the basis that they could be run over etc and deny the argument that a long life imprisoned is not superior to one that may be foreshortened but that will be less stressed because the animal is allowed to live more in tune with its natural instincts.

Your logic on animal welfare if followed to its black, white conclusion would see all of the animal life on this planet confined to zoos and parks ( for its on good of course and oh yes that of your neighbours).

Cats are not naturally exclusively indoor pets to say otherwise is really just peeing in the wind  :)

[cjb02]

No, your wrong again !

Interesting, which part?

Your post yet again fails to impress, You respect the honesty of those who propose harm to cats !!! Yet feel you are a champion of cat welfare , Your logic is certainly impossible to discern.

I think you missed the point, I was not trying to impress you. Just because some one has a different opinion to myself does not mean I cannot show them respect. Even on the subject of cats and cat welfare. Are you rude to every one who disagrees with your opinion? I would hope not. If you were, would that not be child like.

Cats are entertained by their kill you say, again a childish logic, your anthromorphic view of cats playing with their kills does not recognise the pure instinct in this. They are practising and honing techniques for the next kill. They are obeying their normal instincts here not making sapient decisions on which they can be judged.

I agree cats do kill instinctively, however you appear to deny the fact that they can experience any form of enjoyment out of this, which I find an interesting remark. You say my view is anthromorphic, I have accepted that not only humanity can experience emotions like joy, happiness or fear. I have watched many a cat play with a mouse. They wont always kill but will chase it, corner it, effectively tease it. I agree this is instinctive, but the act is done to play and experience enjoyment. Any animal can be judged and are, on their acts.

You decry the responsible cat owner who allows their cat the access to outside and inside on the basis that they could be run over etc and deny the argument that a long life imprisoned is not superior to one that may be foreshortened but that will be less stressed because the animal is allowed to live more in tune with its natural instincts.

I do decry the cat owner who lets their cats roam outside, because it is irresponsible. You accuse me of having anthromorphic view of cats but you are guilty of the same crime. You are assuming that because people have to have a perceived freedom to roam and if withdrawn it makes a life less worth living and that cats aspire to the same belief, why? Surely a anthromorphic view.

As for living in tune with its natural instincts, one could argue that there is nothing natural about a domesticated cat. A domesticated cat is not a wild animal, it has been bred for thousands of years to exhibit specific traits. It might have been once a natural animal but what we have in our homes now is purely man made.


As for following my opinions to their black and white conclusions, an interesting thought you have there, one I would disagree with but still interesting.

Cats are not naturally exclusively indoor pets to say otherwise is really just peeing in the wind  :)

Again I will reiterate, there is nothing natural about a domesticated cat, it is purely man made.

And speaking of free roaming cats dying. This is a rather sad article but  highlights the point of cats just left to their own devices stand a better chance of having a shorter life.
http://www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/news/Poisoning-fears-over-cat-deaths.5320762.jp

[carbonel11]

I fail to see where I have been rude to you  :o, it is your posts I find illogical and childish not you yourself ( I don't know you so I can't comment)

As for your link to a local newspaper , I could post another one to my local paper where local cats are being poisoned by some sicko monster, would you applaud their honesty too ?

Your cats have been bred and selected away from their normal wild state the normal moggy however has not, it remains mostly true to it's original form apart from a few colour variations. Humans have not meddled with it's genetics in the same way as they have with dogs.

Cats do not choose to enjoy they simply enjoy or don't they are not sentient beings ( at least not last time I checked the science journals ) you should not judge their actions by a human sapience morality.

A cat is a cat, it enjoys following it's instincts to deprive it of an access to the outdoors is wrong.

[telboy]

Olicat,
if you're still around - that is?

I've tried & failed, like yourself, in using anything that's effective in discouraging felines.
In addition, I've tried 3 different ultrasonic devices & found them expensive & useless.
I was thinking of the water jet fitted to a sensor, anyone tried this? Would only use this at night so that birds don't get blasted.
I enjoy a challenge, and will persevere with my efforts!!!!
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[carbonel11]

One of the most effective deterrants is having a cat of your own. Cats are extremely territorial and are uneasy in anothers space. Of course you have to train your own cat to crap elsewhere than your veggie plot . A clean litter tray is usually accepted over your prize veg. :) :

[cjb02]

As for your link to a local newspaper , I could post another one to my local paper where local cats are being poisoned by some sicko monster, would you applaud their honesty too ?

The reference to the article was an aid to imply that what some people in this site have inferred does sadly happen, and another reason to keep pet cats inside.

Your cats have been bred and selected away from their normal wild state the normal moggy however has not, it remains mostly true to it's original form apart from a few colour variations. Humans have not meddled with it's genetics in the same way as they have with dogs.

It has still been bred away from any wild state, whether to the same degree as a domesticated dog or not. The genetics of the wild animal have been changed and that includes my normal moggy.

Cats do not choose to enjoy they simply enjoy or don't they are not sentient beings ( at least not last time I checked the science journals ) you should not judge their actions by a human sapience morality.

I am not saying they are aware of their own existence but I strongly disagree with remark they they simply enjoy or do not enjoy. Their is more than that to a cats emotional repertoire .I am not suggesting that cats have the same emotions as a person but they still do have emotions/feelings

These are two interesting articles

http://www.catchannel.com/behavior/article_5288.aspx

http://www.messybeast.com/emoticat.html

I am sorry if you cannot find any thing in your science journals, may I suggest broadening your reading material.

A cat is a cat, it enjoys following it's instincts to deprive it of an access to the outdoors is wrong.

An interesting last line, "it enjoys following its instincts", is that an admission  that a cat has feelings at last?

I would be curious to know, do you know any one with a house cat or visited a home with a house cat in?

[carbonel11]

You argue points I haven't made, of course a cat can feel but it can not decide to act or not act in the way that you or I would based, on a moral code. Surely you do not believe this ! Others on this thread have suggested the only good cat is a dead cat because they kill birds you have said nothing to refute this and then use this as an argument for locking up your pets.
You are wrong the cat is not bred away from it's original state which is why it is hugely succesfull as a species surviving in a feral state.
If I might suggest some reading. Try Born Free by Joy Adamson, she agonises over Elsa an adopted Lion cub but decides in the end that her natural  freedom is preferable over a life led caged in captivity. As a child I questioned this ( Elsa dies ) but as an adult I realise how much captivity would have impaired Elsa's life. Cats as pets can have the best of both lifes you deny your pets an important aspect of their existance.
You continue to argue forcefully against other cat owners while failing to retract your message of admiration for those who speak of doing then harm.
This more than anything undermines the credibility of your arguement.

[lewic]

Blimey, never thought cat poo (or prawn tails lol) would arouse such passions on an allotment site!

I'm with carbonel on this one. The statement that Ragdoll cats "adore children" sums up my objection to selective breeding! What many owners want is a pet that will not retaliate when their kid mistreats it. Cats and small children are not usually compatible. Most moggies will (quite rightfully) wallop a kid if its picked up by the tail or stuffed into a toy box, and this is how the brat learns.

My old puss (just testing this swear filter!) had a telepathic child-radar and would slink behind the settee if a visitor on the doorstep had a child or dog with them, even if they had made no noise. He knew exactly who was friend or foe, and it never ceased to amaze me. He was also very streetwise, and would be up on our steps at the first sound of a car. Breeding out these instincts seems to me to be the ultimate in cruelty.

[cjb02]

I did not suggest a cat has a moral code. I am simply arguing that a cat can have a fulfilled life as a house cat. no less no more and does have emotions and an excellent quality of life that is not suppressed by living in a house.

As for the comparison to a truly wild animal, the same reasoning cannot be applied. Simply because lions are wild animals, where as cats are bred as pets.

I wont retract my remarks about people being honest in their dislike for cats, they are entitled to their beliefs just as the next person. The onus is on the cat owner to keep their pet in this case cats under control and safe. To many people let their cats roam free with scant regard for other people or animals and expect everyone else to do their job of looking after their cat. That was my original argument. Cat owners who let their cats out are irresponsible.

You still never answered my query of do you know any house cats and their owners to genuinely comment on whether it is wrong for a cats well being. I am just curious if you are speaking from personal experience or just object through assumption.

[Borlotti]

Charlie, my stray cat was reading all this on the computer, and got fed up and has just gone out, probably to poo in next door's garden, but luckily she loves him.  He will be back in soon as he waits for me to get off the computer and go to bed and then he can jump on my back and wake me up.  He is quite a good alarm clock at 8.30 am but hasn't quite got the idea that Sunday is tea and biscuits in bed, and not cat food.  He does go out when the sun is shining but if it is raining or cold (sensible cat) only goes out for a quick pee and then sleeps on bed or settee.  I don't agree with shutting cats out, especially at night, but with a cat flap they soon come in when they are scared or cold.

[cjb02]

LOL ... 8.30, thats a lie in at our house. This morning, 7.30 cats bouncing round the house, partner was not impressed but they got their morning fuss and then carried on.

[carbonel11]

I did not suggest a cat has a moral code. I am simply arguing that a cat can have a fulfilled life as a house cat. no less no more and does have emotions and an excellent quality of life that is not suppressed by living in a house.[/color]

I do not believe they do have as fulfilled a life.

As for the comparison to a truly wild animal, the same reasoning cannot be applied. Simply because lions are wild animals, where as cats are bred as pets.

Aaah so your logic on animal welfare does not extend all the way to a black and white solution ( to quote yourself , interesting ...........) As I said a pet cat can have the advantages of both wild and captive life you are denying your cats the benefits.

I wont retract my remarks about people being honest in their dislike for cats, they are entitled to their beliefs just as the next person. The onus is on the cat owner to keep their pet in this case cats under control and safe. To many people let their cats roam free with scant regard for other people or animals and expect everyone else to do their job of looking after their cat. That was my original argument. Cat owners who let their cats out are irresponsible.

Total tosh, people are entitled not to like cats people are not entitled to beliefs that harm, maim or kill cats because they poo and nobody seriously concerned about animal welfare would say so! You have not spoken one word in rebuff to these cat haters. I invite you to do so now!

You still never answered my query of do you know any house cats and their owners to genuinely comment on whether it is wrong for a cats well being. I am just curious if you are speaking from personal experience or just object through assumption.

I did not realise you had asked this, yes I have. A friend made the misjudgement of keeping two siamese once , housebound in their high rise flat. The cats were always trying to escape and after a very narrow escape on the balcony the friend made the wise decision to rehome her cats to a third party with access to a garden.

At best you are seriously misguided in your beliefs. The onus in law thank god is for people to behave in a humane way towards cats.Your words would seem to be efforts to justify such evil actions by saying its the owners fault and if such I find that appalling. I invite you to clarify your meaning.

[Georgie]

Mr Smith... My hero... totally agree with you.

I am also a Cat owner. 2 and love em to bits. They are house cats. 100% Never let them out. They are well adjusted, healthy, fit and happy cats and they are moggies. Fully neutered, chipped, up to date on all injections, wormed and had drops for fleas.

I have a friend who volunteers for a local animal charity that takes in injured cats. The amount of cats/kittens that end up there is disgusting. either badly injured or with in hours of death, but their owners love em.... not that the owners know the cat has been killed/badly injured.

The amount of dead cats I see on the road is criminal. all because "cats lovers" want to gives little Tabby the right to roam just to feel the air and rain. They feel the air all right, the air inside the tyre of a car at 30 and 40 and 50 and 60mph!!!!  enough said there.

To me a cat owner that lets their beloved tabby out, doesn't love cats, They just want a pet on a part time basis and believes that other people should look after it the rest of time, because they cant be bothered.

I work with a lady who has two cats. She always lets them out. They are never gone for more than 12hours but yesterday, she had not seen one for 48hrs plus. She is very worried. I refer to previous car comments. Both her cats have bad health problems. bad teeth (have had operations etc...) and other intestinal related issues. They are always getting fleas. They are always going to the vets (has had lots of expensive fee's). She loves her cats though and they feel air and water on their faces. They are only 6yrs old. She says she loves her cats. Give me a break will you!

As for cat owners finding it acceptable for their pets to spoil other people gardens. No it isnt ok. As for cat owners who think that it doesnt hurt little tabby killing birds, yes it does hurt. An estimated 90million birds are killed by cats every year!!!! rare birds and more common garden birds, but at least little tabby is feeling fresh air and rain.

One word describes this type of person "selfish"

[Georgie]

Mr Smith... My hero... totally agree with you.

I am also a Cat owner. 2 and love em to bits. They are house cats. 100% Never let them out. They are well adjusted, healthy, fit and happy cats and they are moggies. Fully neutered, chipped, up to date on all injections, wormed and had drops for fleas.

Can I ask why you'd chip a house cat?

G x

[carbonel11]

Mr Smith... My hero... totally agree with you.

I am also a Cat owner. 2 and love em to bits. They are house cats. 100% Never let them out. They are well adjusted, healthy, fit and happy cats and they are moggies. Fully neutered, chipped, up to date on all injections, wormed and had drops for fleas.

Can I ask why you'd chip a house cat?

G x

Georgie I suspect the same as you, could it be these cats would not seem to be as happy with their captivity as we are led to believe?

So there is a concern about escape either that or a worry about a burglar stealing them ( they are however ordinary moggies )

[cjb02]

Can I ask why you'd chip a house cat?
G x

When I got the cats, I didn't know if they were going to be house cats or not. So whilst they were having their vaccinations, they were chipped at the same time.

However upon speaking to friends who have cats and let them out and friends who keep them in, I decided that the best quality of life for the cats would to have them as house cats.

In response to carbonel, I take it by your lack of response you dont know any one with house cats and are looking at this subject with blinkers on and have no personal experience of house cats at all.

Also does carbonel place less value on an ordinary moggie. With that inference if you lost your cat, would that not concern you? ordinary moggie or not, probably not, to you it is only a cat, that is only instinctual, has no emotions and can easily be replaced by another kitten!!!

You are starting to sound like a scientist, who works in a lab on animals.