Topic: aminopyralid & gardeners question time

[saddad]

I'd be quite interested to see how a field dissipates, but allowing for the mangled English, how it breaks down in actual "field" conditions...   :-\

I'm sure soil temps may be relevant to chemical reactions.... and I don't live in Mississippi.... so I assume it might take longer here...  ::)

[Melbourne12]

By the way, I think 'The aminopyralid problem is really not that important in the scheme of things '  is a rather tactless comment in the circumstances. If you'd rendered your allotment useless by covering it in manure - yes, it really would be THAT important.

I've already addressed that point, but just to re-emphasise: yes, it would be important to me.  I'd be jolly cross.  But I wouldn't expect it would edge the credit crunch, CIRA, and the war in Afghanistan off the front pages.  It simply wouldn't be important in the scheme of things.

But I challenge you to find anyone whose whole allotment has been rendered entirely useless, even for a single season, by aminopyralid.

Oh, and it can take a lot longer than three years for aminopyralid to disappear entirely.  After 1066 days (twice the 533 quoted as half-life upper limit in soil), levels would be 25% of the original, not zero.

[Melbourne12]

I'd be quite interested to see how a field dissipates, but allowing for the mangled English, how it breaks down in actual "field" conditions...   :-\

I'm sure soil temps may be relevant to chemical reactions.... and I don't live in Mississippi.... so I assume it might take longer here...  ::)

The field dissipation studies are misleading for our purposes.  They were aimed at determining the rate of breakdown and water dissipation in soils that bore crops that had been sprayed.  Conditions are favourable in such a case, since there's plenty of air and light on the surface of the soil.

There were no studies of dissipation in manure, because nobody thought of such a thing, and the safety methodologies don't call for it.  There are, I suppose, few darker or more airless places than a cow's stomach, or the middle of a dungheap.

The figures suggest that in anaerobic conditions at the bottom of a pond, the half life is 990 days, or around 3 years.  So it is very persistent indeed in those conditions, which is what has caused the problem in the first place.

So I'm not suggesting that there wasn't a problem.  But it's being fixed in  a sensible way.  There's plenty of good advice for people affected (including the much-derided Manure Matters website) on how to speed up the breakdown of the contamination.  There's no threat to health.

No wonder the BBC and the RHS aren't reacting strongly. There's nothing more to do, no news story, nothing to see here, folks.

[Eristic]

But I'm definitely out of my depth, there - don't know what a 'field dissipation study' is!

This is a study of how long it takes for the contamination in your field to migrate to someone Else's field.

[saddad]

Nice one Eristic....  ;D

[Tin Shed]

I am doing the broad bean test using horse manure from a local stables before I spread it on the plot. It was OK last year and the stables use their own straw etc, but am not taking any chances.
But can we not do our own experiment - if you had contaminated manure and damaged plants then do the broad bean test again this year and so on until healthy beans grow. I appreciate that it is not really scientific but surely it can give some sort of indication of when the soil is clearing and the aminopyralid is being broken down.

[OllieC]

I have proof of what Eristic says - My allotments on a slope. I put about 10 bags of manure in a builders bag at the top. The spuds at the bottom of the slope (25 yards away directly below the manure) were all distorted, and the new raspberry canes in between were all damaged. It was a clear strip running down from the manure. The rest of the plot was fine (apart from the broad beans below my pumpkins growing on fresh manure). Can't see what's bad science about that ???

And FWIW, I blame the people who make alcohol for the kids who get drunk and smash up the phone box at the bottom of my street, and I blame gun manufacturers for people getting shot. I also blame Marconi for children having their limbs blown off by landmines... There are always smaller baddies, but it is the people who make the stuff who should be ultimately accountable. I could go on, and frequently do!

[hellohelenhere]

I don't think there's anything 'bad science' about the bean experiment - quite the opposite. Empirical science at its most direct, surely? I'll be starting mine tomorrow. :)

[saddad]

but it is the people who make the stuff who should be ultimately accountable. I could go on, and frequently do!

Well done Ollie... If somebody wasn't prepared to go on we would still be using Thalidomide... oh sorry we still do in some South American countries where people can't protest...  :-X

[1066]

There's plenty of good advice for people affected (including the much-derided Manure Matters website) on how to speed up the breakdown of the contamination. 

As an aside I just googled manure matters - the top 2 links were from A4A including this thread :-X

I am doing the broad bean test using horse manure from a local stables before I spread it on the plot. It was OK last year and the stables use their own straw etc, but am not taking any chances.
But can we not do our own experiment - if you had contaminated manure and damaged plants then do the broad bean test again this year and so on until healthy beans grow. I appreciate that it is not really scientific but surely it can give some sort of indication of when the soil is clearing and the aminopyralid is being broken down.

I think that sounds a practical solution to me tinshed, I'm testing mine and am in a similar position to you and would obviously like to avoid the heartache of diseased and damaged plants, if I can. the reason I posted on this topic in the 1st place  :)
And OllieC - sorry to hear you were affected

[asbean]

but it is the people who make the stuff who should be ultimately accountable. I could go on, and frequently do!

Well done Ollie... If somebody wasn't prepared to go on we would still be using Thalidomide... oh sorry we still do in some South American countries where people can't protest...  :-X

And since Dow were the suppliers of agent orange (defoliant) and napalm used in the Vietnam war why should we trust them now?

[saddad]

Did they take-over Monsanto or just change their name to protect the guilty?
I seem to remember Agent Orange was used from planes... are we to blame the poor air-crew, who also suffered side-effects from handling it, rather than the company that made it?   ???

[70fingers]

Just another example of a product being brought to market without being fully tested!!!

Irresponsible dont you think? Shame on them they should know better but afterall when you are looking down into a test tube all the time its difficult to see the wider picture! ;D

[Robert_Brenchley]

I think they'd be more interested in their cashflow and their bonuses!

[telboy]

This subject has been milked & milked.
Is it not the old adage of supply & demand?

Farmer:   I need a more effective herbicide better than the one I've been using.

Dow:       Yes farmer, I have one for you now - just been developed.

Farmer:    I've tried it & it's brilliant. Thank you.

And then the sh*t hits the (small) fan!

Worked with DDT.

[ceres]

Telboy, you just hit the nail on the head.  These poor farmers barely scraping a living wanted a better pesticide.  It had to be:

- more effective (for better crop productivity)
- more persistent so that they don't need to spray as often (lower labour costs) and so that they have to purchase less of the product (lower expenses).

Dow developed the product their customers wanted and put it through all the legally required licensing and approval processes.  Has anyone actually read what the famers think of this and what they think of the amateur gardeners (us) who have caused the fuss that has had their favourite product removed from the market.  I have and it ain't pretty.  They love this stuff.  Forget about any solidarity for other people who work the land.

I'm so sick of reading here all the misleading, downright wrong information on this subject on this forum and the conspiracy theory cr*p is laughable.  The good information is there for anyone who takes the trouble to look for it.  I've said my last word on aminopyralid on this forum.  Have fun with your bean tests, that's all they're fit for.  Anyone who reads this forum and who suffers contamination this year only has themself to blame.

[betula]

I certainly hope it is not going to be your last word on the subject Ceres.

You have given such good information. :)

Please keep it coming ;D

[hellohelenhere]

I'm genuinely confused, Ceres - which is the wrong information that's winding you up, and where do we find the 'good information'? I'm not being sarky, I want to know!
I don't see what else I can do other than the bean test, with the three bags of manure I now have sitting in my front garden. Do you think I'm better off just throwing them away?
cheers
H

[cornykev]

Ceres after all the trouble you had with aminopyralid and all the time and trouble you took gathering information it is you I and others look to for advise. I can't get a definite answer for my manure so doing a bean or whatever test is not a bit of fun for me its a genuine worry about the health of my manure. I left it covered and out of the way until today and found grass and potato growth growing in it, so I would just like to find out if its OK to use as I have started my spuds off without it which is something I never do, some of us are just a bit ignorant about it, others and there opinions I cannot vouch for. Thanks for all the Info you have given on the subject and I can understand your frustration but the other opinions do confuse some of us and I'm sure Helen is in the same boat as me.  ;D ;D ;D

[Eristic]

If there is a potato already growing in the manure the bean test is superfluous. Potato will indicate presence of toxins just as well.

I chose the broad bean as the best indicator largely because it is cheap, quick to grow and can tolerate cooler temperatures than other indicator plants. Tomato plants are extremely sensitive to the poison but not of much use in January.