Author Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?  (Read 16711 times)

grawrc

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2008, 22:10:16 »
Well said Manics! On the ball as usual. Given the countless waves of invasion of these British Isles (even the Brits were invaders = immigrants by the way as were the Angles who gave England her name) there are d**n few of us who are not of b***d race. Hardly any pure Aryans at all actually.

Now I am proud to be Scottish when I think of the many great inventors and scientists of Scottish origin. I love Scotland because it's wild and beautiful and there are huge open spaces where you can breathe and feel glad to be alive. But of my 4 grandparents one was from Yorkshire (surname Beaumont?? Norman conquest perhaps?) one from Lancashire (and his mother was French), one of Irish origins. Only my paternal grandfather was a Scot born and bred ... as far as I know  ;) ;)

And what does it really matter? Immigrants are an easy target  because they are that little bit different, but hey in my experience most of those folk are the movers and shakers who are prepared to get off their backsides to go and make a better life for themselves and their families. Remember the holocaust? That's what happens when people get jealous of others and use them as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong.

Anyway I'm rambling. if the UK is going down the tubes - and I don't for a minute think that it is - then let's not blame the immigrants. If I were to blame anyone - apart from myself that is for my lethargy in doing something about what i think is wrong- then it would be myself for .. Oops I've said that already.

Have you ever noticed how our attitudes to others become self-fulfilling prophesies? Blessed are the peacemakers .....

asbean

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2008, 22:31:14 »
"There landed yesterday at Southampton from the transport Cheshire over 600 so-called refugees, their passage having been paid out of the Lord Mayor's fund; and upon testimony of the ship's officers, there was scarce a hundred of them that had, by right, deserved such help, and these were the Englishmen of the party. The rest were Jews. The ship seemed alive with them. There were Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews, Peruvian Jews, all kinds of Jews, all manner of Jews. They fought and jostled for the foremost places at the gang-ways; they rushed, and pushed and struggled into the troop shed, where the Mayor of Southampton had provided free refreshments…they fought for places on the train..."

"There were a few quiet, sad-faced Englishmen-men who had gone to South Africa, who had made a little money, who had lost their all through the war. One man, with scarcely a rag of warm clothing on him, whose only asset was a tin of sandwiches, admitted he was dead broke, but refused to take a half-penny."

That was the Daily Mail 3 Feb 1900 reporting the arrival of 350 Jewish refugees. This marked the start of a successful national campaign against refugees. The refugees referred to in this article had arrived in Southampton on board the Cheshire having fled increased hostility and anti-semitism in South Africa since the start of the Boer War.

Nothing's changed.
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manicscousers

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2008, 08:02:52 »
one of my ancestors on my mum's side was of the fraser ? frazer ?clan, anne, maybe we're feuding cousins.. ;D
bit of a heinz variety, me  ;D

OllieC

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2008, 09:51:33 »
I'm keeping my mouth shut. For once....


debster

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #104 on: February 25, 2008, 12:11:11 »
there is a huge divide between the have and the have nots in society, that is regardless of age group or location. both my husband and i have been married before and have children by former spouses. now these children for varying reason live with their other parents and we pay maintenance. now i have absolutely no problem with doing this. the CSA was one of the cruelest inventions i ever came across in my life. now both hubby and i earn fairly decent wages, i am a nurse he is a chef.( however if you took into account the amount of unpaid hours we do it brings the wages down somewhat), when i was training as a nurse and earning £120 a week the csa deemed it necessary for me to pay £25 a week plus arrears (by the time they sort the case it is always in arrears) this left me less then £95 a week for everything however i did work all hours god sent in order to stay out of debt. now you may not think this is a problem but my ex husband is a self employed builder with a very clever accountant so each year his tax level was minimum and his income very nicely thankyou (due to cash payments). now hubbys ex wife, has 2 children by him and one by the new man living with her who works full time but she doesnt declare he lives with her, we willingly pay up every month plus half school trips, uniofrms, shoes etc etc.
hubby and i could never afford to buy our own house yet both other parents are doing so, have brand new cars (we have a newish one now) and one has exotic holidays every year and one is away most weekends and school holidays, but more importantly then that they dont have to work the hours or shifts we do to make their income up. as i said i am totally happy to pay for the children we love them all dearly and do everything we can for them and we are not living on the poverty line but we dont go out often, rarely drink but we do enjoy a holiday every couple of years.
as regards to pensioners, in my ward i come across those who have plenty and those who have nothing, even if they have the money to pay for care services they need there are no services to be paid for, there are not enough carers etc etc. there was a pensioner in my town who also went to prison for not paying her council tax. someone anonymously paid it and she was furious she too could have paid in fact next time she did in pennies.
even if more money were given to pensioners there are a minority that would not spend it, they are surviving on very little, saving every penny upkeeping a large old family house in order to give it all to their children, i know we had a patient who came in unkempt with hypothermia due to this very reason. some of them dont want money they want company, someone to eat their meal with, the meal they dont bother to cook cos its too much trouble for one person.
i dont pretend to know the answers i earn my money i pay my dues and the two do tally just, i cant imagine what it is like for our elderly who cannot afford it and have to worry every day, and i dont know enough about immigrants etc to comment i only know that at work 90% of the kitchen workers are now Polish who speak very little English, whilst i have no problem with them working there i need them to be able to understand me when i want food for a patient with allergies etc. i work with a very varied amount of nationalities  and dont believe i am racist in anyway i dont however think it is too much to expect them to be able to communicate with me the patients the relatives etc etc

Nick65

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #105 on: February 28, 2008, 08:48:19 »
If someone refused to pay their Car Tax because of their age, would that make things easier then?

They still use the same services as us, we will have to pay it when we get older. If they want treating as equals then thats what they have to do, pay up like us all!

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grawrc

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #106 on: February 28, 2008, 08:57:16 »
Oo eck! Hope you still feel that way when you're 70! I think maybe you need to get in touch with your feminine side?Today's pensioners grew up in a very different world from now - at least young folk now know that they need to save like b****y if they want to have a life when they retire.

Nick65

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #107 on: February 28, 2008, 09:01:54 »
But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now  ::)
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betula

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2008, 09:09:34 »
If someone refused to pay their Car Tax because of their age, would that make things easier then?

They still use the same services as us, we will have to pay it when we get older. If they want treating as equals then that's what they have to do, pay up like us all!



Lord save us from people like nick 65.Think I am frightened to grow old.But hey Nick we all like something for nothing.You seem fairly keen on advertising your business for free on this site,to say nothing of your ebay links. :(

Froglegs

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2008, 10:48:31 »
Oo eck! Hope you still feel that way when you're 70! I think maybe you need to get in touch with your feminine side?Today's pensioners grew up in a very different world from now - at least young folk now know that they need to save like b****y if they want to have a life when they retire.
I'd like to know how you save, with your bills going up all the time. >:(

Paulines7

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2008, 10:59:40 »
I think you are being a bit hard on Nick.  Being a pensioner does not mean that you will be a lot worse off than someone with children who goes to work and has a mortgage or rent to pay.  When my children were small we were extremely hard up.  I couldn't get a job for a while because my children were under 5 years of age and employers didn't want to employ me in case I needed time off to look after them when they were ill. 

My in-laws at that time were pensioners on Supplementary benefits and they had far more money to spend after taking out their expenses.  Out of what we had left, we had to run an old car so my OH could get to work.  Our mortgage went up from 7% to 15½% and we lived off cheap food such as baked beans and eggs as most of my OH's salary went on the mortgage, rates, fuel etc.  My son's shoes had holes in and if it wasn't for my mother buying him a new pair I don't know what we would have done.

Todays couples have had to take out greater mortgages to get themselves on the housing ladder and I imagine a lot of them are as hard up as we were then. It would be grossly unfair to expect them to subsidise the over 60's on car Tax etc.

I have two friends in different parts of the country who don't know each other and they both receive Pension Credit.  One gets subsidised rent while the other gets a reduction of Council Tax.  Both friends go off on several holidays a year including going abroad.  They are both frugal with their cooking and have healthy diets, making their own soups etc.  Neither smoke or drink apart from the odd glass of wine if they go out for a meal.  They both run cars.

I also have a cousin who is in her seventies.  She and her husband receive good work pensions and go on cruises two or three times a year.  Surely they should pay their way in society and not expect to get free Council and Car taxes. 

Because of the baby boom after the second world war we know that there are a lot more pensioners now.  If everything was free for them this country would come to a halt.   

Help for those pensioners that are needy..........YES but blanket help for all over 60's....a definite NO as it just wouldn't work. 
These are the views of a 63 year old!!............Me.

grawrc

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2008, 18:07:50 »
Froglegs I often read advice on saving at a site called The Motley Fool -www.fool.com . One of the things they point out is that the earlier you start saving the more you'll make, given the power of compound interest. I agree with Pauline that when you have a mortgage and/or young children saving is really hard, on the other hand it is a good idea to get used to regular saving. Supposing, for example, that you save 5% of your weekly/monthly income to start with, and when you get a pay rise put half of it into savings, after a bit you will have a tidy sum stashed away for emergencies.  Put it in a cash ISA and you don't pay tax on the interest. As of April 2008 you can save £7200 a year. I'm not suggesting that you have that amount available to save but every little helps (where have i heard that before?? ;D) Just say to yourself: I earn £x less 5% and budget on 95% of your income.

And that's the next thing: write down what you buy/pay for and make a budget that includes it all. If budget exceeds income then you need to do some thinking about how to change that, cos if you don't you will end up in debt - which is bad.

We all spend loads of money on things we don't need (look at our seed hoarding for example). It's not bad in itself, but if you want to save, and we all need to save, it bears looking at a bit closer.

And this is horribly off topic so in conclusion - we're an allotment society. ;)

Paulines7

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2008, 21:01:45 »
..... I agree with Pauline that when you have a mortgage and/or young children saving is really hard, on the other hand it is a good idea to get used to regular saving. Supposing, for example, that you save 5% of your weekly/monthly income to start with, and when you get a pay rise put half of it into savings, after a bit you will have a tidy sum stashed away for emergencies.  Put it in a cash ISA and you don't pay tax on the interest. As of April 2008 you can save £7200 a year. I'm not suggesting that you have that amount available to save but every little helps (where have i heard that before?? ;D) Just say to yourself: I earn £x less 5% and budget on 95% of your income.

And that's the next thing: write down what you buy/pay for and make a budget that includes it all. If budget exceeds income then you need to do some thinking about how to change that, cos if you don't you will end up in debt - which is bad.

We all spend loads of money on things we don't need (look at our seed hoarding for example). It's not bad in itself, but if you want to save, and we all need to save, it bears looking at a bit closer.

It's not that simple Grawrc.  My husband is a Civil Servant and since the 1970's his pay has diminished in real terms as various Governments have decided to make an example of public sector workers by giving pay rises less than the cost of living.  There were some years when he didn't get any pay rises at all.  We could never have saved while we were bringing up the children.  They received full grants for universities as my husband's income allowed this and we also got Council Tax rebates when we lived in Scotland.  We never had any extra money to save.   

My father was much better off than we ever were yet he was just an insurance agent and didn't have the responsibilities at work that my husband has.  He didn't work as hard either yet he was able to support my mother who stayed at home.  He used to buy a new car every five years, something we have never been able to do.   

It is only in the last few years that we have been able to put a little money aside but nothing like the amounts you quote.  When we do save, we end up spending it on household items.  We had second hand utility dining furniture when we married 33 years ago but the chairs got too dangerous to sit on last year so we bought some new chairs and are now saving for a table to go with them.   We have had to replace fridges, freezers, washing machines, mowers etc.   The car is probably the next thing that will need replacing as it is ten years old but we are still paying for it.  Despite all this I know we are better off than a lot of people. 

« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 21:03:19 by Paulines7 »

GrannieAnnie

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #113 on: February 28, 2008, 22:55:56 »
"There landed yesterday at Southampton from the transport Cheshire over 600 so-called refugees, their passage having been paid out of the Lord Mayor's fund; and upon testimony of the ship's officers, there was scarce a hundred of them that had, by right, deserved such help, and these were the Englishmen of the party. The rest were Jews. The ship seemed alive with them. There were Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews, Peruvian Jews, all kinds of Jews, all manner of Jews. They fought and jostled for the foremost places at the gang-ways; they rushed, and pushed and struggled into the troop shed, where the Mayor of Southampton had provided free refreshments…they fought for places on the train..."

"There were a few quiet, sad-faced Englishmen-men who had gone to South Africa, who had made a little money, who had lost their all through the war. One man, with scarcely a rag of warm clothing on him, whose only asset was a tin of sandwiches, admitted he was dead broke, but refused to take a half-penny."

That was the Daily Mail 3 Feb 1900 reporting the arrival of 350 Jewish refugees. This marked the start of a successful national campaign against refugees. The refugees referred to in this article had arrived in Southampton on board the Cheshire having fled increased hostility and anti-semitism in South Africa since the start of the Boer War.

Nothing's changed.

And then there was my hubby's grandfather from Scotland  who fought in the Boer War ( an orphan taken in under age because he knew the smithy business) and when the war ended his army was told they weren't wanted back home  in Scotland anymore. Instead the govt. would send them either to Australia or USA. He and a buddy flipped a coin and USA it was.  He never talked about Scotland after that. Scotland's loss- he was intelligent, very hard working and a good father of 5.
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Ceratonia

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #114 on: February 29, 2008, 10:17:55 »
Froglegs I often read advice on saving at a site called The Motley Fool -www.fool.com .

Excellent advice. Their articles on mortgages, credit cards, savings, pensions, investments, tax etc. have saved me easily a five figure sum of money over the 10 years since the fool.co.uk website started. Boring stuff, but remember your bank's pension or mortgage "advisors" don't have your best interests at heart, they are salespeople.

Paulines7

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #115 on: February 29, 2008, 11:25:58 »
Unless I am missing something, the Motley Fool seems to cover the USA and not over here. 

I like this site:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/

As well as savings, it has a really interesting section on Council Tax.  Just enter it in the search text.  The site will tell you the bands of other houses in your area (good to snoop on the neighbours).   If they changed hands in the past few years, it will tell you what they sold for.  Very informative for nosy people like me. 

Ceratonia

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #116 on: February 29, 2008, 11:53:29 »
Unless I am missing something, the Motley Fool seems to cover the USA and not over here. 

Try http://www.fool.co.uk/


manicscousers

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #117 on: February 29, 2008, 13:12:49 »
try moneysavingexpert.com they've advice about everything you could want  ;D

grawrc

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #118 on: February 29, 2008, 15:10:47 »
Oops sorry! Did I give the wrong link. :-[

Pauline don't get me wrong: of course there's no one solution that fits all but I think you'd agree that most of us but certainly not all could save a little if we really wanted to. Getting the saving habit is the only way I know to end up with money in the bank even if it's the price of a pint or a packet of fags that gets saved.  Of course there will be exceptions.

Like Ceratonia, the Motley Fool has alerted me to many scams and saved me much dosh over the years it has existed. it's my favourite, but I do look at the money saving expert as well. When it comes to finance I need every bit of help I can get.

Anyway sorry for hijacking this thread.

valmarg

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Re: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?
« Reply #119 on: February 29, 2008, 22:01:56 »
But at the end of the day our generation is buggered - We have no pension plans to speak of - All that money has now gone, and we are going to be worse off unless we cough up a huge amount now  ::)
ALL say a huge 'THANK YOU' to Gordon Brown.  He is the person that singlehandedly  ruined the final salary pension schemes.

Oh, I forgot that is only for the private sector.  The public sector still has fantastic final pay pensions, courtesy of the council/income tax payer.  We subsidise what Gordon Brown has taken away from the rest of us!!

valmarg

 

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