Topic: WHAT KIND OF SOCIETY ARE WE?

[posie]

the kind of society we live is when you come from a differant country you get all the benefits available, housing, new car, that our British oap have paid for and most of them (if they are like my dad and been carefull with there money and own there house) have never drained the system as much as the influx of foreigners has.

Nope, the actual facts are these....

Immigrants account for just 8.7% of the population yet they contribute 10.2% of all income tax collected.

Immigrants contribute 33.8 billion of the total revenue in the UK, this increased to 41.2 billion in 2003/04

Actually a lower take up of means tested benefits amongst immigrant population and there are more minority ethnic individuals in the bottom 5th of income distribution in the UK.  In fact the Pakistani/Bangladeshi population are subject to rates of poverty four times that of white nationals.  This is through a combination of factors such as poor housing/low pay/inadequate pensions.  There is a reliance upon other family members for sponsorship and strict rules as to what if any benefits they are able to claim.  If I remember rightly they were only receiving 70% of the means tested benefits that their white counterparts were able to claim.

Today's position on immigration is this... 12% are EU Citizens, 31% are Commonwealth citizens, 38% are 'other' foreigners such as New Zealanders/Australians and 18% are returning Brits.

I'm not saying there aren't those milking the system, but I can tell you I know far more white British Nationals doing exactly the same thing.

Another point to make is this, racial discrimination is still rife amongst social institutions, you are more likely to be diagnosed with a psychotic disorder and sectioned for it if you are a black afro-caribbean male, if you attempt to claim a crisis loan which has to be done with a face to face interview (although I think there is now a move to do these applications via telephone) as an ethnic minority you are 5 times more likely to be turned down than you would if you were white.  There are more black males in prison than white, yet in the majority of their cases, their offence was a lesser one, yet their sentence harsher.

"Great" Britain - I don't think so.  Arrogant Britain, yes.

[betula]

Yes Posie,our country does have a lot of faults,that is why I started this thread but faults can be rectified.
I think we live in a great country and in the main I am proud to be British and not ashamed or shy to say it.I do not think we are arrogant.On the whole I think we are a very tolerant nation.People are desperate to live in our country.Why do you think that is?

[posie]

On the whole I think we are a very tolerant nation.People are desperate to live in our country.Why do you think that is?

To be honest I seem to be coming across more intolerant than tolerant people lately.  I guess I'm getting a little bit jaded, especially with the whole moral panic over immigrants and the massive amount of right wing propaganda that's out there.  I just wish people would accept that we're all individuals and stop using race or age or gender as a reason to attack people or keep them down.  According to my lecturer today there are actually more people going out of our country than coming in.  On my pink fluffy cloud, everyone would have an allotment, everyone would get on and everyone would be colour blind!  ;D

[Jeannine]

Posie well done... why don't we have a Smilie that applauds . XX Jeannine

[Suzanne]

I have watched this debate evolve and as I am not one for confrontation let it slip by - but feel that maybe I need to speak up. I am not sure whether this will be read or received well - but here goes.

I have had this same discussion with a number of people in the past about the UK going down the tubes. I am not massively patriotic, but I am proud of the way that this country responds to others in crisis, whether they are in the UK or abroad. Comic Relief, Children in Need, Tsunami appeal and many others demonstrate the caring attitude of the majority.

I have also been one of the ones that emigrated to another country and returned here again - so something to measure the UK against as well.

All in all I think the UK is one of the best countries in the world to live in. People may complain about the welfare system and the NHS, but where else is the safety net so secure that everyone is entitled to be supported if they need it. If you go into hospital after an accident - you don't worry that if your insurance isn't up to date and that you will lose your house. If you are made redundant or become incapable of work, the state, supported by our taxes, will support you.

I despair when I hear of the current "lazy" generation. They are like any previous generations - the majority wanting to work and better themselves and a few who are easy targets because they have faults. I am sure the mods and rockers of the 50's and the hippies of the 60's were also seen by the then tax paying generation to be wasters. Maybe you were one, and maybe you believe this current generation of youth to be the worst? Believe me they will come up trumps and probably be complaining about the youth of today given another 20 years.

We as a people have emigrated, and we as a country have also had a level of immigration, it isn't something that we cannot cope with. After all we are a people who at our hearts cherish tolerance, acceptance and above all respect of others. We take this to the extent that we have embraced freedom of speech to the point when even something is controversial and offensive to others we will defend it. We even go to war to protect these principles.

The old chap who refuses to pay his council tax is doing precisely this. Given a law and a judgement he disagrees with he is making his own protest, in a peaceful but very public way. We need to respect that, someone in this country will always be protesting about something because that is their right. Sometimes they will get the law changed because large numbers protest - remember the poll tax. Sometimes it is a single protest and nothing changes, but the individual will have had their say and probably feel much better about it. After all this is a democracy.  

[valmarg]

In the UK we live in a 'control freak' society.

valmarg

[Paulines7]

my dad is 81 has his own private pension and three little part time jobs that he HAS to have to help make ends meet. my mother who stayed at home to look after us kids is 71 and she has a small pension and has 7 jobs to help dad with the house hold bills they don't live beyond there means don't claim benefits and never have so yes it makes me sick when you see another foreign body on the streets wearing the latest clothes that you just know you have paid for society sucks and what is great about Britain any more

Tohellwithweeds
I assume that your father paid his National Insurance Contributions when he was working so therefore would have a state pension in addition to his private pension.  Together with your mother's small pension that must surely be enough to live on.  One assumes that there is no mortgage at their age.  Maybe they are paying rent but this can be reduced once incomes fall.  Council Tax credit can also help those on small incomes.  I think you should speak to your parents as something doesn't ring true here.  Perhaps they just prefer working or maybe they are not claiming those benefits which they have paid into.

[valmarg]

Today's position on immigration is this... 12% are EU Citizens, 31% are Commonwealth citizens, 38% are 'other' foreigners such as New Zealanders/Australians and 18% are returning Brits.

New Zealanders/Australians? 'other foreigners'.I always thought, and was taught that they were part of the Commonwealth.  Still, you learn something new every day :o :o

valmarg

[posie]

I stand corrected, obviously didn't write that down correctly during the lecture.

[asbean]

New Zealanders/Australians? 'other foreigners'.I always thought, and was taught that they were part of the Commonwealth.  Still, you learn something new every day :o :o

valmarg

They still need a visa to work/study, and they are immigrants.  If they overstay their visa they are illegal immigrants.

[silly billy]

I have the solution!!

Judging by the comments there are alot of people unhappy with this country so if its so bad why not leave then there would be plenty of houses and money for the immigrants so many seem to dispise.

[Old bird]

Simple as that  Silly Billy!

[Jeannine]

No, it is not as simple as that.

Work took us out of England originally not a vision of a better life,and we always wanted to come back to retire at home.

We did, we draw no British pensions although my husband is entitled to one on the contributions he made before he left.

I am still working but will not get a pension either as I went to work here at 57 and only paid contributions for 3 years before I reached 60, after that I was not allowed to contribute at all, even though I have worked for 6 years since then.

Returning is not an option for most folks and bear in mind we were coming home!!

To say simply go back is unkind and frankly I for one am thoroughly hurt by the comment. I never thought I would start to cry about a comment I saw here but I have.

This comment has made me feel like an unwanted outsider and it must be much worse for those folks who have left their home to start here.

And this because I was honest enough to say the country that I loved and was so looking forward to coming back to has detiorated to the point that it becoming an uncomfortable place to be  but I am not about to abandon my home, I was born here, of stock that was for generations.

Your remark has made ne feel like an alien and very very upset.

I see this all the time in my job, one person says a mean thing and another immediately backs them up, while the person in question who is already hurting is double kicked.

I am  now so  distressed and I am English, and as such I have a right to say what I see and I truly believe this country is rapidly going down the hill as a place to live. I shouldn't be told clear out then.

XX Jeannine

[djbrenton]

I can't believe ( OK I can) some of the ignorant xenophobic nonsense Little Englanders espouse. The vast majority of immigrants to this country arrive here for exactly the same reasons as we might move to Spain, Canada, Australia or wherever else. Somewhere along the line we think that as white, civilized British we should be welcome wherever we decide to move for a better life. How outraged are we to learn that some Spanish don't like us taking over areas of their country or to hear that some Australians dislike 'whinging Poms'. It's all rather different when less civilized Eastern Europeans or worse, darker coloured people arrive here. Every day I pass Eastern European 'scroungers' washing cars, I see well-behaved Asian children paying better attention at school than their 'British' counterparts and going on to prop up the National Health Service after University. Of course there is a small percentage who arrive on our shores with the intention of milking the system, but I don't have to walk far to see far larger numbers of native born doing exactly the same. We need to stop assuming that all African immigrants are Nigerian scammers and all Easter-Europeans are linked to the Russian Mafia.

As to the suggestion that 'so if its so bad why not leave'. Fine, but on the basis that people in the rest of the World have the same right to leave wherever they're not happy and go somewhere they might be.


Oh, yes, and welcome back to the UK Jeannine.

[SamLouise]

I think it's quite ignorant not to mention ridiculous to be told, "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it"  What sort of answer is that?!  Why shouldn't us citizens have a point of view about our own country?  Pfft.

Jeannine don't be upset by petty comments.  Sometimes people just don't think about what they're saying and even less about the impact it might have on others.  You are most certainly not an unwanted outsider and don't you think such a thing!  :-* :)

I'm pretty much in agreement with DJB's post.  I've always felt that if someone's led a terrible life and they're coming here to the UK gives them a better chance, then why deny them that - my issue is with those who travel across many safer countries than their own to get to the UK - why do they do that?  Hmmmm?  I've not got a problem with genuine asylum seekers and people who do indeed settle here and make a better life for themselves - including employment.  What I begrudge (foreign or not!) is working all week for MY money for MY life and MY family and having to cough up for scrotes and moochers who have the chance to work and won't.   

[silly billy]

I think its ignorant to comment on a post you clearly haven't read properly. The post I put said "WHY not leave" it didn't say "if you don't like it leave" There is a difference.

I think it's quite ignorant not to mention ridiculous to be told, "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it"  What sort of answer is that?!  Why shouldn't us citizens have a point of view about our own country?  Pfft.

Jeannine don't be upset by petty comments.  Sometimes people just don't think about what they're saying and even less about the impact it might have on others.  You are most certainly not an unwanted outsider and don't you think such a thing!  :-* :)

I'm pretty much in agreement with DJB's post.  I've always felt that if someone's led a terrible life and they're coming here to the UK gives them a better chance, then why deny them that - my issue is with those who travel across many safer countries than their own to get to the UK - why do they do that?  Hmmmm?  I've not got a problem with genuine asylum seekers and people who do indeed settle here and make a better life for themselves - including employment.  What I begrudge (foreign or not!) is working all week for MY money for MY life and MY family and having to cough up for scrotes and moochers who have the chance to work and won't.  

[Jeannine]

There is no difference at all if you are on the receiving end of it

[manicscousers]

I don't normally join in with these threads, like Jeannine, I get quite upset if folks hurt others with their comments..but...
how many people on here can say they are full blooded english..my grandparents on my dad's side were italian, does this make me a foreigner ?
compared to lots of countries we are very lucky, count your blessings, Jeannine, I hope you're feeling a little less upset now, many of us disagree with things said, we just don't contribute to the thread  :-*

[SamLouise]

I think its ignorant to comment on a post you clearly haven't read properly.

You said: "if its so bad why not leave"
I said: "if you don't like how your country is being run then leave it"

Semantics, sunshine, semantics.

[valmarg]

If it wasn't for the fact that oh and are too old to emigrate. we would be out of this rubbish country.

Drugs being withheld from pensioners, who have paid in to the system all their lives.  Just because the drugs are too expensive.

Pensioners with macular degenerative eye disease are not permitted treatment because it is to expensive, so are given the option of pay privately, or go blind.

As I previously said, England is not a good country to grow old in.

valmarg