he!he! your so right ray and mal, but thats what i hope, as i've just built two very large compost bins to save them this year, i've found a manor house with a large walled main garden with loads of well manture trees around it, happy day are here again (as the song goes) ;D ;D ;D ;D and a thatcher who's leting me have the old straw from roofs he's repairing. ;)