Topic: THE FRIDAY DEBATE

[ACE]

Shambo!

Should they have killed the poor cow?

[OllieC]

Poor thing. But as someone on the radio said, it's a group of highly committed individuals against the laws of the land. Could he have infected another cow? I don't think he went out much.

It certainly raises the highly valid point of how lightly we regard death.

[Emagggie]

It has been said on the news that he was tested again post mortem and Bovine Tuberculosis has been confirmed. It occured to me that the powers that be would say that anyhow-but maybe he was good mates with a badger. (Ducking now)

[Jeannine]

Two points here.


Could he not have been treated for it?

What if he had been a man instead of a cow?

[manicscousers]

can it be transmitted to humans ?
I try to think of all the poor people who lost their stock to foot and mouth, only because they were in the 'infected ' zone
 ???

[Barnowl]

Could well be wrong, but I think it isn't treated because tuberculosis is one of the more adaptable bacteria so there's a danger of treatment resistant strains developing in much the same way as MRSA and other nasties have developed (and you know how many those have killed).

Also why they don't try and inoculate badgers?

[tinker]

Bovine TB is a different bacteria to human TB, but it is a zoonosis so can be transmitted to humans that come in to direct contact with a infected animal, however this risk is small. Bovine TB in milk is killed during pasteurisation and the bacteria is killed in meat when cooked properly, carcasses are inspected at slaughter and condemned if signs of TB are present.

[Kepouros]

Bovine TB can be transmitted to humans by contact, which is one reason why the compulsory testing of bovines was introduced.  Certainly Shambo has been kept confined in his temple since the destruction order was made, but if the order were to be rescinded, how long before some `do gooder` decided that he was entitled to go out for some fresh air?  And how many `pilgrims` are going to be in contact with Shambo ( with the risk of transmission) while he is confined.  I don`t know how many badgers there are in his neck of the woods, but there are other ways of transmission of bovine TB, and Shambo must have acquired the disease somehow. One infected animal can result in a whole district becoming affected and placed under restriction.

I know that if I were the owner of a carefully built up and TB free pedigree dairy herd in his neighbourhood I would be out there with the Men from the Ministry shouting for his urgent destruction.

[Jeannine]

So if it tranmitted to a human, do they treat the human or shoot him too,surely if a human can be treated so can an animal. I don't understand.

[carolinej]

This is my opinion based on news reports I have heard, so it may not all be true!! (the reports, not my opinion ;D)

This TB could have been cured by an injection, which would have rendered his meat unsuitable for the food chain, but he was NEVER going into the food chain.

Yesterday they said that after the post mortem, it was likely....LIKELY!!!... that he had TB.

It was kind of the government to use lethal injection, as the owners were pacifists, so it just made the death a bit more humane than the bolt through the brain method.

He was very cute and raised a lot of public sympathy. What about the thousands of animals, many just as cute, that have much worse lives and are then killed in a less dignified way, just so we can have a burger?

If the government have a law saying that they can exercise discretion in some cases, and let the animal live, then , if this wasnt an exception, what on earth is?


Just my opinion though ::)

cj :)

[Jeannine]

mmm, then I think if they should have been offered the cure as it is obvious he would never go in the food chain, and I do remember the discretion used with a lamb when the foot and mouth was on. Wasn't there one who they thought was dead and was found live among the corpses who got a reprieve after a big fight.

I always come back to the same point.


If a man caught anything,the powers that be would fight to save him, if an animal is a special pet to someone and the technology is there why are thay not allowed to fight for their animal ?

I simply don't understand.

If my dog caught it from a badger would they destroy it or try to cure it, my Pekingese is not going into the food chain either.

It is all too complicated for me, and seems a little mad.

The power thing springs to mind.

XX Jeannine

[Froglegs]

I'm sure if there is a cure there must be a good reason why it was not used.

[cazy]

‘I'm sure if there is a cure there must be a good reason why it was not used.’

‘do they treat the human or shoot him too,surely if a human can be treated so can an animal. I don't understand.’

‘This TB could have been cured by an injection.’

Oh dear, here I am again, popping up all over the place.

They didn't shoot me thank goodness.  I contracted TB eight years ago whilst working with victims of crime who had recently arrived in this country.

Unfortunately it was not diagnosed until eight months after I had been admitted into hospital after I'd collapsed with a fever and months of coughing that you wouldn't want to know about. A long and very unpleasant road to recovery followed and lots of fighting with the NHS, but that's another story.

You cannot cure TB with an injection, you can vaccinate against it but it is only seventy percent effective, I was vaccinated as a child.

The only cure is a cocktail of very aggressive drugs (more tears, got to stop for a minute, it's bringing it all back)

Better now, cuddled my dog.  It really is that bad, It's a form of Chemo therapy, it lasts a minimum of six months and we all know of the horrendous side effects.  Then another one to two years till you get back on your feet.  I have had to have four operations since and the pain in my left lung never goes away.  If my son had not been twelve years old and needed me, though it was he who looked after me, fed me, everything, well I don't like to think about it.

I love animals, love them enough not to put them through it.  Animals hide their sickness so as not to alert predators to their weakness.  Believe me Shambo will have been in great pain for a long time and I am happy for him now he is free.

[theothermarg]

thank you for reliving your experience i think it puts all other comments into perspective we live and learn
marg

[shirlton]

If the animal was suffering or would suffer in the course of time then I think it was the right thing to do. We do have the option of not letting our animals suffer. I would opt to let them live whilst they are pain free and then do the decent thing and  release them from their pain. In this case I believe that the strain of TB could passed onto humans so it's a different scenario. If those of the group of this religion were the only ones in contact with the animal and they chose to look after it ill or not then it's a risk they are willing to take so long as they don't become carriers and pass it on to some unwilling outsider. This thread could go on and on

[emmy1978]

Aw Cazy - bless you. What a horrendous illness. It certainly sounds as if poor old Shambo had it all coming even if he had been treated.
Whether he would have ended up in the food chain or not, if a human caught it, even if they were prepared to take the risk, the people they would come into contact with would not be so relaxed about it. (I am still unclear whether it can be transmitted but it seems we can't be too careful these days)
Either way I do feel sorry for the people (some kind of Hindu movement?) who worshipped him.

[Amazin]

Cazy, your story mirrors mine - I contracted TB from an unknown source and wasn't diagnosed for around eight months, despite many visits to doctors, one of whom diagnosed depression... hmmm...

When I was finally diagnosed (by accident) I weighed just under 5 stone, had also contracted both pleurisy and bronchitis and had two cracked ribs from coughing. Only then was I admitted to hospital (the isolation wing of the Hospital for Tropical Diseases) and dosed with some VERY strong drugs for a very long time. I had to provide the hospital with details - as far as possible - of all the people I could possibly have come into contact with within the past YEAR, so they could be alerted that they'd need to be tested for the disease. When I asked about going home, my consultant told me that, having come within a week of death, I might as well get used to the surroundings for a while. Like you, Cazy, I had several years of treatment afterwards, in fact I spent five years as an outpatient before being finally discharged.

My consultant was also absolutely outraged when I told him that the explanation I'd been given for such a long delay in getting the correct diagnosis was the belief by many (mostly young) doctors that TB had been eradicated in Britain for many years - so they hadn't thought to test for it.

You might recall getting the 'six-needle' jab - called the Heaf test - at school. If it showed no reaction you then had to have the the TB innoculation. I asked my consultant why I had contracted TB having had the jab as a teenager at school, and he explained that there was a common misconception that it gave lifelong protection, but that in fact it can last as little as seven years.

I had no reason to doubt him - his name was Mr Heaf, leading expert in TB, inventor of the Heaf test, and may God bless the ground he walks upon.

I don't know enough about this particular situation i.e whether the animal's condition can be transmitted to a human, but the human version of TB is carried on your saliva - in the tiny droplets of liquid on your breath. That's why it's so contagious - and so silent. So IF it can be transmitted to humans, I wouldn't hesitate to isolate the animal, and his carers, until they had all been treated - for their own sakes, as well as anyone else's. I wish the community well though, and I mourn their loss with them.

[cazy]

Thank you Amazin, (they said I had a secondary infection after flu) you have dotted the i's and crossed the t's.

I was also in isolation and everybody I had been in contact with, work, family, friends, and their immediate families had to be tested. 

I don't think you ever get over it, it is a disgusting and debilitating disease.  I suffer from the early onset of osteoarthritis, bought on my doctors believe by the shock to my system from contracting TB and the four operations and medication that followed.  I have never been able, and never will be able to go back to work again.

I would just like to clarify something with 'shirlton

[cazy]

Sorry I posted too soon and I'm too tired to startagain.

If those of the group of this religion were the only ones in contact with the animal and they chose to look after it ill or not then it's a risk they are willing to take

In my first post I was not talking about humans suffering for the sake of their animals or other human beings as such.  If I was I would not have been in half the places I have.

The monks in this case chose to stay with Shambo.  I would have probably done the same had I been bought up in their culture.  What I was talking about was the pain that innocent beast had to suffer.  Did he have a choice?  He didn't have a voice? as I said I'm glad he is free.

[Amazin]

inventor of the Heaf test

Apologies, should have read "son of".