Topic: Over-large apple tree

[grape_expectations]

I have a rather large "inherited" apple tree on my plot.  It's a half standard, I think, on a rather vigorous rootstock, more suited to an orchard than an allotment.  Overall the tree is about 12ft high, with a lot of upward-growing whippy branches and I'd like to reduce the height and encourage it to thicken out a bit.  During the winter I took out some crossing branches to open out the centre of the tree but didn't want to overdo it and stimulate it into producing even more vigorous shoots. Would it be a good idea to cut back the long branches during the summer and by how much?   It's a  healthy young tree (its bark is mostly smooth still) and I would be interested to see if it produces any fruit this year.  There were a few small apples on it at the end of October last year when I took on the plot - a russet of some sort, I think... must have a suitable pollinator somewhere.  It's just starting to blossom now - very pretty so at least it has a decorative value!  

Would appreciate any advice on tackling this - although it's rather a large tree for my plot (about 40 sq ft) I feel I should give it a chance, even though it takes up space and water.

Thanks
Christina
Aka grape_expectations

[budgiebreeder]

Do you think that it could be one of the minature type that has three different types of apple on it?Sorry cant help with the pruning .I have this type and just prune as best i can and hope for the best.

[john_miller]

Because of the hormones in trees you should be aiming to create tiers of horizontal branches, about three or four on a tree that size. Rather than prune back the horizontal branches, because of the effect you anticipate, concentrate at the moment on getting rid of vertical branches or shoots. Some vertical branches will be inevitable, especially 'water shoots', so don't think you are doing anything wrong if they appear. Any chance of a picture?

[budgiebreeder]

Hey John thanks.Well i was doing it nearly right.

[philcooper]

My gardening group had a talk on Monday from the MD of Blackmoor Fruit Nurseries and he explained that the last thing you do it to trim back vegetative growth, which I understood him to say is the new growth (without fruit buds). This causes the tree to produce even more vegetative growth. You either cut it out completely or leave it alone - and that should have been done by now. The veg growth grows out of the fruit bearing growth.

Fruit bearing growth, that with buds on (over 1 year old - I think) can be cut back and the ideal time is September.

On training the branches, the more horizontal they are, the better they fruit. In Belgium (the leaders in the art) they slowly bend branches down (a bit every 2 weeks) - if you have the time.
In the UK the branches are trained at 45 degrees to a cane during the year and that is then bent to the horizontal after the end of the Summer

[grape_expectations]

A picture..ooh, err not sure I'm up to that, with merely a point and click camera at my disposal but I guess I could get my next film put on to CD - 21 frames to go, though!

The tree has some horizontal branches low down on the trunk which are producing spurs (a bit too horizontal , nearly took my eye out the other day!)  - this is where I found the few remaining fruits last autumn.  I cut back one of these a bit because it was rather in the way.  Otherwise I only took out a few upward branches which were actually crossing over and chafing the bark - not thick branches, about 1 - 1½ inch diameter, taking them out, as I'd read, within the branch collar, more or less.  There are quite a lot - I don't think I'd describe them as water shoots, just normal growth in a young tree which has been left to its own devices for the last three years or so (it was a very neglected plot, the poor tree was absolutely festooned with bindweed).  There's very little evidence of any pruning being carried out before, I've only spotted a couple of old cuts.    

So it seems I have to weight/tie down these branches to a lower angle - then can I cut them back a bit? long branches sticking out in all directions would be a bit of a problem on my smallish plot.  I did think you could summer prune a tree to encourage the formation of fruiting spurs lower down, or is that just side shoots?

[philcooper]

As I understood the talk - John will no doubt correct any errors -

1. you can't have a branch which is too horiziontal 0 horizontal is what you shopuld be aiming for.

2. You can't produce fruiting wood - the tree produces growth which in yr 1 is non fruiting but in subsequent years capable of producing fruiting spurs (or tips for tip bearers).

3. Pruning non-fruiting wood (other than its complete removal - which is what you did) is counter productive. Summer (that is late summer pruning) is to tidy up (it doesn't generate new non-fruiting wood.

So tie and do not prune until the wood shows evidence of fruiting spurs when you can regulate the size of the branches (and the crop)

It all seems a bit confusing because Chris Beardshaw on the BBC site says aim for a wine goblet - our lecturer - trained at East Malling many years ago said "the last thing you want is a goblet" that requires upward pointing branches which are not what is required except for the central lead.

Is there scope here for the odd difference of opinion??
 ;)

[kenkew]

A friend of mine asked a similar question about an old apple tree he had inherited, (don't know the age of your's) ...my cut and paste from that is...
Winter pruning stimulates growth where summer pruning checks growth. So, shorten unwanted laterals from July. Generally speaking fruit trees fruit on the horozontal branches and gain height on the verticals. If you take out any branches which cross over others and cut out a few from the centre, that will help the tree gain balance again. When you cut, the stump should be left smooth or disease will get in. Rather than simply cut out 'everything', the tree will recover better if you loop young uprights over each other to form a sort of arch shape. Think of the two ends of a shoe lace...wrapped round each other. Looks better than a short back and sides, too!

[john_miller]

Chris Beardshaw said that, Phil? The same 'gardener' who said to grow tomatoes by cutting the main growing point and allowing the side shoots to grow? No, Phil, there is not scope for the odd difference of opinion here. This is basic plant physiology. Upwards growing branches produce the hormone auxin at the tip. This translocates down through the vascular system and suppresses production of lateral branches further down the main branch. The result is that more nutrition goes to the main growing point and it just keeps growing. The affect of this hormone decreases as the tip grows so that laterals will grow out eventually, towards the base of the main branch. If you prune out the tip then auxin production ceases and laterals will break all the way along the main branch- i.e tip pruning, as you quoted, just results in more vegetative growth
By training branches horizontally, whether mechanically or by pruning to horizontal buds, auxin production is suppressed. This will result in production of the hormone gibberellic acid which promotes reproductive growth. With increased fruit production there will be less vegetative growth due to so much nutrition being taken by the fruit and, consequently, less need to prune.

[grape_expectations]

Love the science! Going to memorise "gibberellic acid"..... Have been pondering your kind replies - took another look at the tree this weekend.   Seems it was correctly trained earlier on as its bottom-most branches have been encouraged to the horizontal, though the branch leaders are pleasing themselves at a 45 degree angle.  Plenty of blossom on them, though.    I think some higher branches are flexible enough to tie down.  All I've got to find now is a bargain bundle of large tent pegs!    I guess I'd have to pad the branches where the rope passes round them?   Sounds like hard work but great fun.

Christina

[allotment_chick]

Hi Christina
Had the same problem myself - I'm in year one of the three year renovation pruning cycle - best advice I found was here:

http://www.umassgreeninfo.org/fact_sheets/plant_culture/neg_apple.pdf

and, of course

http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles1101/fruit_tree.asp

I was delighted to see this weekend that I have left enough of the tree ontact for it to carry blossom at least!
Good luck !
AC