Topic: dig or no dig

[Derekthefox]

I was of the same mind Wardy, but I didn't dare pop my head up !!!

My decision? To dig (today anyway)

[undercarriage plan]

Definitely not to dig.......she has a bread maker!! Use ya loaf... ;D

[growmore]

Nice one Wardy that sorted it ....

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?   ..Jim

[lorna]

Wardy. Have you seen Growmore's last post. Is that how they speak in Doncaster?? ;D ;D

[Robert_Brenchley]

My solution is, dig when there's a real reason, but not just for the sake of digging.

[Derekthefox]

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?   ..Jim

Ever noticed how wherever you stand, the smoke goes right into your face?

 ;D ;D ;D

[grawrc]

Or as that old b.....er Voltaire put it : "Il faut cultiver son jardin"     :P

[Robert_Brenchley]

Wasn't it Diocletian who said it first? He faced a total crisis with an empire that was simply two big for one man to rule alone, split it up between himself and four other hyper-ambitious emperors, dominated the scene for 20 years, then retired and forced the other senior emperor to retire at the same time, handing over to the next generation. When it all fell apart and they begged him to come back, he refused, reputedly saying that he preferred to cultivate his cabbages.

[Derekthefox]

The stuff that gets posted on this website is awesome ...

[john_miller]

From what I have read "no-dig" is the home garden adaptation of the commercial "no-till" method of farming. No-till was introduced in the 1950's as a fast, consequently lower cost, alternative to ploughing. It's entire existence as a method is due to economics, viewing soil as a commodity to be utilised, ignoring better husbandry techniques in the pursuit of an industralised approach to food production. While no form of cultivation is perfect no-till is certainly more detrimental to sustainable food production than ploughing. It is viewed by organic certifying bodies over here to be so detrimental to sustainable production, which is now the goal of certified organic protocols, that is a prohibited, as opposed to approved or restricted, practice. No-dig/no-till methods actually encourage leaching of nutrients and subsequent ground water contamination in all but semi-arid or desert climates. This is due to the long term establishment of vertical channels in the soil that allow the unchecked flow of water downwards, taking any dissolved compounds with it.
The addition of a winter mulch, probably disingenuously to some, will make the problem worse as it will absorb excessive rainfall, rather than permit surface run-off into discreet channels, and allow these large quantities of water to penetrate the entire soil profile in amounts sufficent to promote more leaching. A more throrough analysis of this can be found at:
  http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/impact.htm and at:
  http://ewr.cee.vt.edu/environmental/teach/gwprimer/group06/corn.htm
Presently no-till is widely used throughout the "bread-basket", the great plains, of the U.S. to produce corn, soybeans (both are mostly used for animal feeds) and wheat. It's speed allows solo farmers to cultivate far larger acreages than even a farmer with one or two employees can manage using more traditional cultivation techniques. As has been noted it is very dependent upon petro-chemical compounds and, as has also been noted, large quantities are used. It is indicative of the unsustainability of this practice that the quantities of these compounds used in U.S. agriculture doubled every ten years between 1945, coinciding approxomaitely with the widespread adaption of petro chemicals into farming, and 1995, when genetically modified plants were introduced (and resulted in a reduction in agro-chemical use). However, during these four decades, yields per acre remained essentially the same, even with the introduction of F₁hybrids, with their increased vigour and yield, in the 1950's.

[carloso]

Err Tractor ! Anyone have a tractor i can borrow ?

Please with a plough on the back ?

That's Tratorrrrrrr Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Happy New Year to you all

Each to his own

Carl

[Robert_Brenchley]

The immediately obvious difference between no-till and no-dig is that no-till uses large quantities of chemicals, no-dig doesn't. There may be other differences, I'm not sure. Anyone know more, or have any references I could chase up?

[jennym]

.. It is viewed by organic certifying bodies over here to be so detrimental to sustainable production, which is now the goal of certified organic protocols, that is a prohibited, as opposed to approved or restricted, practice. No-dig/no-till methods actually encourage leaching of nutrients and subsequent ground water contamination in all but semi-arid or desert climates.....Presently no-till is widely used throughout the "bread-basket", the great plains, of the U.S.....

Very interesting info John. Maybe the no-till methods cause problems because of monoculture and the large bare areas (no hedges or permanent plants) involved too?
There is obviously a wide range of views on this, http://www.newfarm.org/depts/notill/index.shtml
No-till here is not used widely commercially, more often lighter cultivation is used, and they involve crop rotation. Mulches such as green manures or cover crops are used to hold soil nutrients over winter, and it has been established that nutrient leaching is vastly reduced. I understand that timing of incorporating green manures is vital in pest control though, there needs to be a gap before planting.
I seem to recall reading an article on US no-till where some work was done that showed that small amounts of tillage on no-till farms done around drainage pipes solved or at least reduced the problem, as did avoiding applying manures near the drain areas, and also closing off the drain channels for a couple of weeks after manure application. I am not confident that this would cure the problem longterm though, I prefer the more integrated approach of light tillage and green manures.

[Melbourne12]

Well in the next few weeks i shall be taking some practical action on this front by getting my school growing club under way.  I shall fill you in on whether this produces environmentally aware good citizens or I-hate-gardening cynics.

Session 1 is going to be devoted to sawing up planks and making raised bed frames, and sending some seeds and compost home..... session 2 is open to suggestions.....  come on guys stop theorising and help me out here.  What next.....

A topic which was very popular indeed at my wife's school was chick hatching.  http://www.livingeggs.co.uk/ are one of the providers.

[john_miller]

The immediately obvious difference between no-till and no-dig is that no-till uses large quantities of chemicals, no-dig doesn't. There may be other differences, I'm not sure. Anyone know more, or have any references I could chase up?

From my perspective the difference is one of scale, not of commodities or practice. If I remember correctly you personally, and many others here, are gardening organically. In exchanges I have had with some other "no-diggers" it was apparent there was no reluctance to use commodities in a hand sprayer similar to what commercial farmers, till or no-till, put into 300 gallon spray tanks! Regarding practice, whether a nitrate comes from organic matter or from a little white petro-chemical ball it is still highly water soluble and subject to leaching. The best way to reduce leaching is correct timing of applications. I would imagine that the flooding that you site suffered in October (?) resulted in a complete loss of nitrates available at that time, as it would anywhere, and rendered any spread mulch less nutritious.

Very interesting info John. Maybe the no-till methods cause problems because of monoculture and the large bare areas (no hedges or permanent plants) involved too?

Those conditions certainly don't help. Ultimately it all returns to economics. Since the North-east Dairy Compact, a price support system for dairy farmers here in the N.E. U.S., came into being there has been a widespread use among dairy farmers of winter rye as a cover crop. That they didn't use it prior to this increase in prices suggests to me, although I could well be wrong of course, that the expense of the seed was seen as an unaffordable luxury. I am convinced that, on the whole, farmers truly want to utilise good husbandry on their farms (I know I do and I'm only a tenant) but low prices, which had barely risen between 1950 and 1995, when the compact came into being, stymied these goals.
The link you provided is an illustration of another attempt to improve husbandry in no-till cultivation. Rodale, who could best be described as the U.S. equivalent of the HDRA, are not the first to try. Hopefully they can have more success overcoming drawbacks than their predecessors. In April of 2004 I drove a car back from California, including through the bread basket states of Kansas, Nebraska, Illinois and Ohio, and I have to regrettably report I didn't see one single field put down to a cover crop. I was in upstate New York last week though and I did see recently spread manure on top of snow, itself on top of frozen ground, though! Doh! When change comes I think it will come slowly.

No-till here is not used widely commercially, more often lighter cultivation is used, and they involve crop rotation.

I don't come back to the U.K. often, and for the past 25 years only in winter, but I don't ever recall having seen no-till cultivation in the U.K.. Perhaps I saw it but didn't realise it, being used to seeing no-till on a large scale. Do you know where is it used in the U.K.?

[Robert_Brenchley]

the only short-term fertilisers I use are wood ash, pee and sometimes comfrey extract, in small quantities. Given the quantities I have, I'll probably have to use a lot next year just to get rid of some of it. Apart from the second (my pee barrel is full to the brim) these only go on when plants are growing actively, otherwise they're inevitably going to be wasted. When I got flooded most of the mulch I'd got down floated off and ended up at the bottom of the hedge. That hasn't happened for several years, since I improved the flood defences, but other plots still flood regularly, and I'd imagine a lot does wash out. I did have a flood the day of the tornado; it was the worst ever recorded in the UK, and only about three miles away, so I'm not complaining too much about the flood defences! We don't often get weather like that, though it is the second time in six years I've had the plot. I don't kknow how badly it was flooded, as I was ill and couldn't leave the house, but it can't have lasted long as it didn't seem to affect the plants at all. Previous floods killed or badly damaged most of my vegetables.

I think there's a great deal of difference between digging for a purpose and 'just digging'. If you've got all the perennial weeds out, what's the point in annual digging?

[jennym]

...... Do you know where is it used in the U.K.?

Really only on very small farms John, usually those that only supply the immediate locality and farm completely organically.
Most of the effort in this subject is being made on introducing farmers to min-till, or reduced cultivation techniques, rather than zero cultivation - these studies show the level at which work is being done: http://www.smi.org.uk/casestudies/

[lynndan16]

But  once it's cleared, it's no digging for me...  Until the ground tells me otherwise.  Can someone please tell me this approach is OK, or not?

Dominique - Thats the approach I used.  You've got to get the perennial weeds out.  If you've got small beds then I think the no dig approach is ok.  My beds are 24ft x 12ft and most are clear of perennials so they just get a fork over and are 'dug' when lifting the crops. the others have mares tail and nettles etc that comes through the fence from neighbours plot so have to be dug on a regular basis to keep them as clean as possible. Just remember  it is a hobby and do what you are comfortable with.
Lynn

[Derekthefox]

Yes, as you so rightly said lynndan, it is a hobby ... we can never emulate the professional level of skill or accomplishment when tending on an occasional basis ... we can only do our best.

[carloso]

Any one seen my tractor yet ???

Carl

Wow who'd have thought 2006 was going to start sooooo hot under the typing !!

*******NOTE*********
You knowjuts a thought to bare in mind is that if people in history hadn't done some thing different and tried different things we ALL might jjust be leading the same life !!!

Imagine !