Topic: dig or no dig

[jennym]

On the subject of intensive agriculture and the use of chemicals and pesticides, the move towards Integrated Crop Management including IPM (Integrated Pest Management) must be seen as a good thing. I don't see that we can expect the multinationals to change overnight, but for example, recent EU legislation on pesticide approvals has forced the issue, and almost all major growers in the UK have taken on board the practices of biological control, albeit with limited use of some pesticides.
For those interested in research and info on these issues there are a coupe of links:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/Project_Data/DocumentLibrary/CE0175/CE0175_1673_FRP.doc
http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/Project_Data/DocumentLibrary/AR0306/AR0306_1701_FRP.doc
http://www.ippc.orst.edu/cicp/index.htm

[terrace max]

I think the skills we learn - and pass on - as allotmenters will be pretty valuable in the peak oil age...

Without cheap fossil fuels (2010?) I can't see how large scale agriculture of any sort can work...

[jennym]

I think the skills we learn - and pass on - as allotmenters will be pretty valuable ...

I think that getting onto the soil and physically growing food should be a mandatory part of the school curriculum.

[terrace max]

...and basic cooking, knitting and sewing, joinery and childcare too...

[aquilegia]

ditto.

I did cooking at school (as an option) and also was taught cooking, sewing and knitting at home.

Wish someone had taught me carpentry too. I'd love to make stuff from wood, but don't know where to start. Grandad did a lot of carpentry, but he went to the big allotment in the sky before I got interested in it.

And there is nothing more vital on this earth than learning childcare. Most people (from what I've seen of "kids of today"  ;)) haven't a clue!

[John_H]

That feels a bit drastic to me, are you sure its fair for us to redesign the core curriculum according to our own personal hobbies and interests?

I don’t have any problem in giving people real choices in some of these things, but I could easily see how compulsory gardening could end up raising a generation of resentful shed burners
 ;)

[aquilegia]

That feels a bit drastic to me, are you sure its fair for us to redesign the core curriculum according to our own personal hobbies and interests?

ooh that's a point - we should include horse riding too. Oh and maybe reading! ;)

[terrace max]

Most people (from what I've seen of "kids of today"  ) haven't a clue!

I think poor parenting is almost inevitable if society rewards those who ditch their kids to 'work' and leaves those at-home carers undervalued and isolated... in these unnatural conditions quality child care is almost impossible IMHO

On the broader educational point, I guess we should just teach kids more how to provide themselves with food, clothes and shelter. These are anything but hobbies and interests. It'll never happen in a society which wants to sell these fundamental things as products, though...

Oh and maybe reading!

Schools don't teach reading, they teach synthetic phonics...

[John_H]

Don't forget bricklaying, accounts, plumbing, catching your own fish, weaving for beginners, stone masonry, glass blowing, and pottery though :)

[Derekthefox]

It has just occurred to me, of all the adult and educational courses I have seen in my town - Coventry, I have never seen any courses on vegetable growing or general self sufficiency ... there must be a demand out there ... this site is proof of that !

[terrace max]

Don't forget bricklaying, accounts, plumbing, catching your own fish, weaving for beginners, stone masonry, glass blowing, and pottery though 

...none of these are essential - especially accounts!!!

[John_H]

Accounts not essential Max, are you absolutely sure? because that would drive a coach and horses through the very future of financial regulation as an essential component of outcome focussed performance management frameworks!

OK I’m being a bit silly there, but the real point, for me, is that we live in a 21st Century global economy, where specialisation gives me the time to go and grub about in the allotment one minute and surf the internet the next.

To be truthful, I’m not sure any of the things you or I mentioned are essential (or rather will be in 10 years time). I think I would settle for an education system that developed flexible enquiring minds, with the capacity to adapt, learn and make rational choices, plus the promotion of a value system which recognises worth in diversity and value as more than a price ticket.

Beyond that I think people probably need to pick their own path with the good counsel of as many knowledgeable mentors as they can lay their hands on.

I would like to make allotmenteering as appealing to young folk as possible, but I can see it would have as much appeal as compulsory sports lessons to some poor conscripts. And as we all know, plants won’t grow properly if there are unhappy people around.

[terrace max]

Take your point about conscription, John.

However, you say

we live in a 21st Century global economy,

Even supposing economic growth can be maintained as finite resources dwindle away...The global economy relies on huge amounts of cheap fuel: it's a sine qua non. This cheap fuel will no longer be available when my children grow up. Therefore it would appear sensible to prepare them for a world without the trappings of the global economy you allude to. To prepare them for a world which will no longer exist seems futile, at best...

Having experienced the primary education system recently - it struck me that developing enquiring minds was not a priority- to me the school system is mainly day care for kids so that parents can return to work and keep the wheels of the economy turning. Hence breakfast/ after-school clubs...

[terrace max]

I am  :). Teachers are not a cause of the school system...

[jennym]

Interesting discussion this one!
In my opinion -
We can contribute by teaching those that we come in contact with, and mulling around ideas like this to come up with solutions.
May seem like a small thing.

The real changes for the better can't take place without people in government who are able and willing to make informed decisions to regulate purely profit based organisations so that they are unable to waste or damage the earth's resources.
People who are courageous enough to propose and pass legislation to achieve this, are few and far between, and are voted into power by us and are part of the wider "us".
They won't get into power or stay in power whilst the majority of people don't know about or understand the effect of wasting or damaging resources. They can do some educating via our schools and media such as TV, internet, books and magazines.

But...again...we can contribute by teaching those that we come in contact with, and mulling around ideas like this to come up with solutions.

[terrace max]

May seem like a small thing.

Forget hopeless politics, it's the only (realistic) thing I reckon Jenny...

[John_H]

I can see plenty of diversity of views here TM

The problem for me with simply making choices in the name of ‘the scarce resources of the planet’ is that it’s an argument that has been running for at least the last 30 years as far as I can remember. And while resources are clearly unevenly and unfairly distributed, you do run the risk of waiting an awful long time for the scarcity argument to be proven right - similar to the old Marxist economic determinists who predicted the inevitable downfall of capitalism, who will be proven right one day but its not very much compensation to all the generations hanging around in the meantime.

On the subject of breakfast and after school clubs, I think they are of really good ways of helping to deliver some life chances to excluded communities. I wouldn’t really like to go back to the sort of society of even ten years ago, when parents choices about their own lives, including the opportunity to work or study, were restricted simply by having no reasonable childcare options available to them.

As for the enquiring minds thing, I also reckon that the pre-conditions for enquiring minds are full stomachs, warm homes, and decent cloths. If breakfast and after school clubs help families just to achieve these things, by impacting on economic exclusion, then they seem a good thing in my book.

[terrace max]

you do run the risk of waiting an awful long time for the scarcity argument to be proven right

How about winter 2006? Gas prices are already predicted to be a REAL problem for householders and industry...Record oil prices this year...You don't have to be Mystic Meg to see the tide is turning...

On the subject of breakfast and after school clubs, I think they are of really good ways of helping to deliver some life chances to excluded communities.

What about the life chances of a 6 year old stuck in an institution from 8 am until 6 pm every day...

If breakfast and after school clubs help families just to achieve these things, by impacting on economic exclusion, then they seem a good thing in my book.

What if they don't?

[Nathan]

Well in the next few weeks i shall be taking some practical action on this front by getting my school growing club under way.  I shall fill you in on whether this produces environmentally aware good citizens or I-hate-gardening cynics.

Session 1 is going to be devoted to sawing up planks and making raised bed frames, and sending some seeds and compost home..... session 2 is open to suggestions.....  come on guys stop theorising and help me out here.  What next.....

[John_H]

Hmm, that feels like a successful problem found for every solution.

All prices are at their highest level ever- its what they call inflation.

Its not the first time there has been a shortage of fuel and there are plenty of other sources of energy.

After school clubs are not ‘institutions’ and if these things don’t impact on exclusion then clearly they couldn’t be described as good for doing so.

Still, its better to have tried and failed as they say……