Author Topic: London shooting (Read 8065 times)

Robert_Brenchley · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2005, 10:36:17 »

Of course it wasn't the reason he was shot. It looks to me as though they're trying to label him as an 'illegal immigrant' in order to dilute the blame, and that shouldn't go unchallenged. A human life is a human life, after all.

kelso · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2005, 11:10:32 »

I really can't understand why the police are being attacked here. Under the circumstances, how else should they have reacted? ???

ina · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2005, 13:28:54 »

Normally I don't participate in debates here but this time I will.

This is my view:
The policeman made a tragic mistake, if he hadn't, he would be a national hero today.
The victim made a tragic mistake, if he hadn't, he would have been alive today.

return of the mac · « **Reply #23 on:** July 31, 2005, 13:41:45 »

Quote

weel, he had nothing to do with the bombings, but why did he run??

Because he was being chased by what looked like ordinary folk (plain clothed policemen), who had guns! >:(

jaggythistle · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2005, 15:23:25 »

Yeah but those said plain clothed policemen have to give warning before they
shoot......... and given the same set of circumstances we would get the same
result again........... to which a large percentage of Londeners will sleep a d**n
lot easier knowing they are doing the brilliant job they are doing !!

ina · « **Reply #25 on:** July 31, 2005, 15:33:53 »

Last thing I would do with a gun pointing at me, no matter who is doing it, is run.
Even if I didn't see the gun and I was being accosted or chased by men in a populated area, I wouldn't run but seek help from the people around me, preferably from uniformed personnel which must be all around the stations these days.
As I said, a tragic mistake.

return of the mac · « **Reply #26 on:** July 31, 2005, 21:32:31 »

It doesnt matter what they said as they could have easily been random thugs lying. No exceptions, anyone will be scared of a gun pointed at their head and will react in different ways. And as for the "brilliant job" they did, killing an innocent man doesnt sound that brilliant to me.

adam04 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 31, 2005, 21:43:48 »

Well lets think of it another way. if the police hadnt have acted and the man had had a bomb.

the headline would read: london blown up, police watch on.

there would be uproar, if the police had have let the man walk onto a train in rush hour and had stopped him and then he had a bomb and boom!

ina · « **Reply #28 on:** July 31, 2005, 22:34:53 »

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Or, if they had let him go after chasing him and nothing happened? Once the journalists had gotten wind of that: Police gave up chase and let a potentially dangerous person get away on a crowded train.

Do we really expect the police to jump on him and first look what's under that coat or in his bag? Wrong time and place for that, these are not normal times.

True, 'anyone will react differently when a gun is pointed at their head' the victim's reaction was a tragic mistake.

adam04 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 31, 2005, 22:43:47 »

ina, i thank you. i think you have summed up this whole topic very nicly there!

Robert_Brenchley · « **Reply #30 on:** July 31, 2005, 23:20:57 »

What would you do if I waved a gun at you and shouted 'Police!'? Any mugger can do that, and the guy came from a country where the police have been involved with death squads and all sorts. Since they'd apparently followed him for some distance, they'd probably had every chance to stop the guy without running after him and panicking him, and I can't really see that coming out of some flats they were watching constitutes 'reasonable grounds' to suspect anything. They haven't said anything at all which in any way connects him with whatever specific flat they were interested in. It seems to me that the more awkward questions we ask about this sort of thing the better. My guess is that the police panicked when he went onto the underground, but why wasn't he stopped earlier if they really suspected him?

daveandtara · « **Reply #31 on:** July 31, 2005, 23:32:31 »

i'd put my hands up.

kelso · « **Reply #32 on:** August 01, 2005, 10:08:45 »

Lets face it, even if they were muggers with guns - you don't run on the grounds bullets travel faster than sound! :o

Robert_Brenchley · « **Reply #33 on:** August 01, 2005, 11:30:34 »

I would because anything except a rifle is strictly a short-range job, and you can't shoot while you're running. Especially if I had a train I could run for!

simon404 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 01, 2005, 16:29:00 »

Firstly, I'd like to point out that this guy had a name - Jean de Menezes. I only point this out as there seems to have been an attempt in the media, in its rush to somehow rationalise this killing, to dehumanize the victim.

Secondly, our perception of this event is controlled by the same media, by passing on information from the police and the home office of their choosing. So at first we were told that he belonged to the terror gang, until it became obvious that he wasn't. Then we were told he arroused suspicion by wearing a bulky coat, now it seems it was an ordinary dennim jacket. He was alleged to have vaulted the ticket barriers, now it seems that the witness who made that claim may have mistaken the victim for one of the policman. You see how the story changes over time? Hopefully in time the facts will emerge in a full independent enquiry, but don't hold your breath, no doubt most information will be withheld for reasons of "national security". So maybe we will never know. Perhaps it was an inevitable consequence of suddenly flooding the streets of London with thousands of armed police.

Another thing, since when was shooting to kill a lawful policy? New guidance for dealing with suicide bombers was apparenly issued in 2002 without anyone thinking it necessary to inform the public or parliament. Allowing the police to write there own rulebook is indeed a step towards a police state.

This event was neither a mistake nor a tragedy. Locking yourself out of your house is a mistake. People in the third world dying of preventable diseases is a tragedy. This was at best a monumental thingy-up and at worst an act of state-sponsered murder.

ina · « **Reply #35 on:** August 01, 2005, 16:51:28 »

So many people, so many opinions.

daveandtara · « **Reply #36 on:** August 01, 2005, 21:52:40 »

again ina, you are right.
it seems that we each have our own opinions in this matter and are unlikely to change them anytime soon.
as someone who lives in london and has to use public transport with my children i have to say that i welcome greater powers for the police including the so called shoot to kill policy.
that said, i am bowing out of this thread because i feel very strongly about it yet want to continue to enjoy this site and stay friends with the people on it.
see you all on the other topics,
Tara xx

ina · « **Reply #37 on:** August 01, 2005, 21:56:15 »

I'll join you. Too emotionally loaded.

Roy Bham UK · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2005, 23:39:56 »

I think there has been too much surmising with too little facts and peeps forming their own opinions with little or no evidence, (myself included) so unless you were that fly on the wall we may never know exactly what happened.
I feel this should now be laid to rest. :(

BsidePig · « **Reply #39 on:** August 21, 2005, 20:46:01 »

I'm finding very difficult to get over the death of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Perhaps some of you would like to join me and others who are very unhappy about a innocent man being killed by the police, about this shoot to kill policy, about the way lies and myths were allowed to circulate as true causing further suffering to the family: a demonstration/vigil will take place outside Downing Street tomorrow 22 August at 6pm.

Sorry about the short notice but I've only learned about this today.

News:

Author Topic: London shooting (Read 8065 times)