Author Topic: Opinion on weed roots  (Read 4903 times)

Bubbles26

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Opinion on weed roots
« on: February 08, 2012, 22:15:00 »
We have at last cleared the snow and begun the delightful task of clearing our new and disused plot.

We started by raking off everything on the top (bindweed, brambles etc) then started to tackle the deep rooted weeds.

I have two problems

The first is that they are really deep, one I managed to get out was about a meter down and that one weed took me nearly 20minutes to dig up. With so many of these if they all took me 20 mins to dig up I think I might be ready to plant for Spring 2013. For info, I am digging them up with a fork and I think they are brambles of some sort. Is there a better way of doing this and what will happen if the roots are left deep down in the soil when I plant veg?

The second problem is that having dug out weeds with the fork there are hundreds of shreds of roots left, I have been picking them out by hand one by one all afternoon but again it is such slow work in four hours I only managed to clear about 1m squared of all weeds and roots. Would running all the soil through a sieve be a good idea or just a waste of more time?

All the online advice says to dig them out but we have about 10 deep rooted weeds to every square meter - at the rate I'm going it will take me all year  :'(

I don't want to use chemicals but I also don't want a plot full of weeds, and if I used a chemical weed killer now - would it work with no leaves anyway and how long would it be before I could grow veg?

Or ... (I'm not holding out much hope for this) - does anyone know of a better way than I am currently doing it?

I will not give up and I want to start off properly but I can't help thinking that there must be a better way  ???
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gavinjconway

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 22:27:16 »
Hi Bubbles - My plot was in a terrible state in October when I moved on.. I was able to dig a patch of 8 mt x 5 before the cold and rains and spent a great deal of time to get as much of them weed roots out.. My feeling is do it properly the first time and hopefully it'l be easier to look after the plot later.. I must say I didn't dig a meter deep tho.. !! Maybe you have a giant variety  ;D
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elvis2003

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 22:42:01 »
sorry bubbles,there is no easy answer but to keep on as you are.Is your ground not still a bit to frozen just yet,as this will only make it harder. good luck,and dont worry,it will only be this hard the first year,honest! congrats on getting your new plot
when the going gets tough,the tough go digging

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 22:46:14 »
Ground has been covered in snow since Saturday night so is actually quite soft underneath  ;D
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elvis2003

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 22:47:30 »
at least you will be warm with all the hard work  ;)
when the going gets tough,the tough go digging

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 22:59:06 »
at least you will be warm with all the hard work  ;)
haha - yup no risk of getting cold with the amount of digging we have to do  :-\
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Buster54

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 23:23:45 »
Hi Bubbles26  weedkiller wont work till the plant is actually growing,your not doing or saying anything that we all have said every day while tackling our plots I dug all my plot over with a fork taking every root I could find then covered it with weed suppressing fabric and planted through it.no offence but you my have a 3rd problem as you seem to be focusing on the big picture(when your plot is done)divide your plot up into sections clear a patch dig it and plant in it as you go then move onto the next bit,weeds will grow back,you never really get shot of them seeds laying dormant in the grass waiting for their chance to grow,just plod on there aint alot you can plant at the min outside anyways  ;)
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gp.girl

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 23:33:53 »
I've got an area with deep rooted brambles, they still come back but are much easier to pull than you'd think as long as you get them early! Just keep weeding and try weed supressing membrane or personally 3-6 layers of card and six inches of straw.

I agree about doing it a section at a time, seeing some crops growing makes all the work worth while  :)
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Deb P

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 00:17:37 »
Lots of good advice so far, I would just add make sure you are digging where you really need to: it might seem obvious but if you think carefully about what you intend to plant and where, you might not need to dig as much as you think. First of all paths: I made them first so I knew where I didn't need to dig, trampled them flat and covered them with membrane and shredded conifers. I had bindweed on the top of the plot which had grown underneath an old carpet left by the previous plot holder: I pulled as much as I could out the top growth, mulched it heavily with manure and grew potatoes there the first year. Digging them out, out came a whole lot of thick new bindweed, but it came out easily and never grew back as much with each cultivation: five years on I still get a little bit but it does not affect any crops at all. Only dig the bits you need to put your earliest crops, and then cover them with something like cardboard or black plastic to keep them clear until you are ready to plant them up. Some bits you can leave covered for a whole season if you have to, don't try and clear it all at once you will get disheartened when the weeds grow back!
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Ophi

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 07:57:44 »
I agree with the good advice here.  We are three years in to our allotment (clay) which was cleared and rotavated by the Council before we took it on.  Unfortunately they chopped up all the brambles, couch, bindweed, etc. and probably spread it further for us.  There was also a very nice willow stump that took a bit of moving.

The first year we put potatoes on the hard to dig part and top dressed with six inches of stable sweepings the next year.  So on half of the allotment we had a crop of potatoes followed by outdoor tomatoes and squashes planted in the sweepings.  This year we are digging it a little at a time and it is much easier.  Some couch and bramble but easier to remove and it is obvious that it is becoming weaker in growth.

On the second half we cleared and covered as we went along and have managed beans, peas, and root crops.  We will be dressing a section of this with stable sweepings this year as it was so successful with the tomatoes and squash last year on the other section.

We also found a not to expensive supply of soil conditioner which we top dress around the peas and when they came out the soil was quite friable and easy to weed.

Until this winter we have not done any deep digging and have used Azadas rather than break any more forks and spades (OH being stronger does not give up with heavy to lift things so tools suffer).

This is the first year that we hope to utilise the whole area.  We know where the bramble is likely to pop up  ;)

goodlife

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 08:04:55 »
I like Deb's advise, and believe me..there is still lot to come up. Sounds like you are doing really thorough job indeed, perharps bit too good? Brambles are important to get majority of the roots around the main growing point..you don't have to try to get rid of every fine hair like root, doc, dandelions and bidweed..more of the roots you can collect less will grow back.
You are not going to eradicate all the weeds in one go..just do good once over, get rid of the major ones and once the growing season starts, you can soon see where you need to consentrate your efforts.
Lots of crops tolerate reasonable amount of competition from weeds and you can keep tidying up as you go along tending your crops.
It is back breaking work and although you sound like you have iron will..many 'wills' have broken in their first season by trying to perfect it too soon.
Carry on with you good work..but do hold some energy back as you never get rid of it all just like that, but will reduce the amount of weed as each year go by... ;)

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 09:48:56 »
Thanks for all the advice, it is really reassuring that I'm not doing it all upside down and inside out  :P

My thoughts about clearing/not clearing the paths is that if we leave weeds which grow sideways out then they would end up growing sideways into our beds and I have read that it can lift veg out. I can't imagine how sad I would be if that happened.  :'(

We will be going back up to the lottie in a bit armed with a garden sieve so my plan is to see how long it takes to sieve through the top soil as we lift and turn it I'm hoping this should be a faster way of getting rid of most of the little roots (there really are hundreds per square foot).

I'm very lucky, as I do not work in Jan or Feb so I have loads of time at the moment and as I can't really start growing anything yet I can use the time to try and get rid of as many weeds as possible. I know I will never get rid of every weed but I'm hoping the more work I do now the more manageable it should be later

Just wanted to make sure I haven't missed a trick when in comes to the best way to get rid of them.

On another note - My OH is very excited as we are going to buy a brazier on our way to the lottie today to burn all these weeds as it seems putting them on our compost heap may have it's own problems. I guess the little boy in him is looking forward to starting fires  ;D
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Kea

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 09:50:31 »
I agree with all the advice. Just to give you hope, i had much the same problem as the Town council ploughed my plot burying brambles and hawthorn deep then my plot neighbour decided she liked the pretty vines with white flowers despite my protestations she is long gone but the problem stayed with me! I started digging a metre down after the bramble's an hawthorn then realised that unless it was a spot I was actually going to grow something it was better to treat them as they arrived above the surface. Gradually my problem has disappeared.

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 09:59:20 »
I started digging a metre down after the bramble's an hawthorn then realised that unless it was a spot I was actually going to grow something it was better to treat them as they arrived above the surface. Gradually my problem has disappeared.

Thanks - makes me feel better. All the advice, pics, and videos online show people digging a spade or so down and removing the whole root system. Easy I thought, until I saw how deep they went. That's pretty much what we are going to do with the brambles - today I'm only going to dig the whole thing out when it is in a bed.

I hope I don't sound like I'm not enjoying it - even with the sudden realisation yesterday about exactly how much work was needed I still loved being up there, it was so peaceful and it is lovely that it is something my partner and I can do together. His children are also really looking forward to growing there own, having picked out their own bed each and what they want to grow. 
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chriscross1966

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 15:05:33 »
Hi BUbbles... I feel your pain, had only really just started to get on top of one allotment after a couple of years before I moved and had to start again....

Lots of good advice above and some reassurance... it takes eyars (and generally being retired) before you'll get the "show allotment" effect so don't worry about the odd weed...

Dig as much as you can this year, in small bits and get some cardboard on them to mulch the beds once dug..

There are things you can just grow without any proper digging if you can lay your hands on enough manure and some cardboard or weed mulch... squashes adn pumkins are one and spuds are another....form piles or ridges of manure (well rotted cow/stable, fresh field tailings from horses are fine too) and then cover with cardboard mulch. COme planting time poke a hole in the mulch and plant squashes on the top of the ridges and spuds as deep as you can get them.... You'll find that after a season the worms will have pulled a lot of the muck into the soil and it'll be easier to work.... there will still be weeds but they're a lot easier to get out....

Another approach I took on one of my new plots.... rotovated it several times last spring including working in a prodigious amount of fresh field manure... then rotored in ridges and planted spuds therough cardboard mulch... rotored it again after harvest earlier in the autumn and there are few weeds showing now...

Also sowing into modules and plan ting out well establishesd plants gives the weeds a harder time in terms of competition and means you know what's weed and what isn't....

chrisc

winecap

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 16:18:09 »
You've had plenty of advice already, but I thought a little more wouldn't hurt. My friend got a new plot early January which hasn't been dug in at least 15 years. Until it turned too cold we dug and weeded about 8' by 20'. We haven't touched it for the last couple of weeks though as it has been too wet and then frozen. It is much easier to dig if you do it when its got just the right amount of water in the soil. Don't be in too much of a hurry that you make it harder than it needs to be.
As for roots, I only remove the perennial weeds such as bramble, dandelion, couchgrass and bindweed. All the other roots will make good food for worms. It is better to leave them in than take them out. I burn the bramble which is above ground as I don't like thorns in the compost, but all the other weeds get composted. I compost perennial weeds separately from the other compost and like to use a builders bag like they deliver sand in. When you have filled it, seal it up for a year or two and you'll find it all composts very nicely. Personally I always dig with a spade rather than a fork, but small spadefulls are better than big. I turn it, kick it, pick up the roots and repeat.

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 17:18:16 »
Thanks guys - thing is I have no idea what is perennial and what is not. The obvious ones I know like Bramble and Dandelion but have no idea what bindweed roots look like or couchgrass (although we have some long grass which is growing in clumps so I am assuming that might be couchgrass.)I have looked them up online but all the pics of the weeds were taken in summer and there are no (or very few) leaves left on our weeds. 

Whenever I turn over a fork full of soil there are loads of disconnected roots so no way of knowing what they were. Have decided to treat them all as evil and burn them lol  :-[
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pumkinlover

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 17:24:20 »
Bind weed roots white 2-3 mm diameter, breaks off easily.
Couch grass thicker and stronger and can spread an awfull long way especially under pavers.
Leave any of either and they will be back. :(

Bubbles26

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 17:54:56 »
Bind weed roots white 2-3 mm diameter, breaks off easily.
Couch grass thicker and stronger and can spread an awfull long way especially under pavers.
Leave any of either and they will be back. :(

Thanks - from that I can safely say that we have both!

Between them and the brambles (whose roots seem to be everywhere) there isn't really much else growing just loads of the above. At least the bindweed is easy to spot.

We have got most of the stuff off the top just got to get those bloody roots out.

Looking at the state of some plots when people get them I think I should count myself as lucky really.
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gavinjconway

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Re: Opinion on weed roots
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 17:58:38 »
Hi Bubbles - google images has loads of photos of weed roots.. just google bind wee or couch grass roots... and click on images..
Now a member of the 10 Ton club.... (over 10 ton per acre)    2013  harvested 588 Kg from 165 sq mt..      see my web blog at...  http://www.gavinconway.net

 

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