Topic: Winter Digging and Muck.

[RobsVeg]

My plot has poor soil with clay in and I have been trying for the last couple of years to improve it although I have made it better I don't think I have done enough. I now have a very large pile of rotted manure and I have had conflicting advice about when to put the manure in, do I winter dig and add it early spring when rotavating, put it in when winter digging or spread over the top after winter digging? just some of the suggestions I have had.
I hope somebody can make some sense for me.

Rob. :-\

[SMP1704]

Hi Rob

Before spreading the manure I recommend that you read the threads on contaminated manure.  If you decide that your muck pile is OK and you fancy a spot of double digging, you could add the manure whilst digging or spread it over the soil once dug then incorporate in the spring.

Hope that helps

[RobsVeg]

As far as anybody can tell the manure isn't contaminated , other people have used my source and had no problems, spoke to the horse owner and he knows of no problems, I am prepared to double dig and put the manure in then if that doesn't hamper the soil being broken down by frost. I just want to make sure I get it right ready for next year, my plot was used by somebody who didn't replenish the soil and it is in not the best shape, my first two winters I wasn't sure but now I'm ready to put it right.

[ceres]

We used the same manure supplier for 2 years before disaster struck.  Ask the supplier if any of the feed has been sprayed with aminopyralid.  If he doesn't know/can't/won't tell you, my advice would be don't use it.   

[RobsVeg]

Hi
I will do but if he says not how far down the chain do you go, bit like russian roulette with manure, as I said though he has supplied lots of plot holders on different allotments round here for a long time and nobody has reported problems, this obviously could enter the chain at any time I know but I'll keep asking.

[ceres]

I'd suggest you only need to go as far as your supplier.  If he is supplying you with manure for your allotment, at a minimum he has a moral obligation to ensure it's fit for purpose.  If he's selling it to you, he has a legal obligation.  You're doing him a favour by taking the stuff away, so he should make sure it's safe for you to use.

'A long time' has no relevance here.  Aminopyralid was only licensed in 2006 and the products that contain it are now the market leaders, which is why contaminated manure has hit the headlines this season.  It may be worse next year because there is a huge amount of contaminated manure still stacked on farms and in stable yards and there is animal feed stored and grass in pastures that have been sprayed.

Only you can decide what level of risk you're willing to take with the health of your plot.

[Trevor_D]

At the moment, there's no fool-proof piece of advice anyone can give, because we're all (even the PSB & the RHS) trying to establish the facts.

The one "certainty" that seems to be emerging is that once the plant material in the manure is fully broken down, the aminopyralid will be released. The jury's still out on a) the best way to do this, b) how long it takes and c) what happens to the aminopyralid then.

If this question had been asked a few months back, I would have been fairly confident in recommending incorporating the manure into the soil during autumn digging and/or spreading it as a mulch in the autumn and digging it in next spring. I've used both methods with no noticable difference; I chose whatever is convenient for my timetable.

But presently, we are recommending our members to do the following:
a)  Don't use the manure heap unless you really feel you must.
b)  If the plot needs manuring, sow green manures & dig them in, unless you know that there is aminopyralid present in the soil.
c)  If you are going to use manure, spread it on the top of the soil and rotovate it in several times during the winter.
d)  Don't grow tomatoes or potatoes on manured soil.
e)  And keep looking at the notice boards for updates.

But - as Ceres says - only you can decide. I manured mine well last year and had no damage this year, unlike others on our site. Why? Who knows? I'm going to try green manures this year, although I might just experiment with manure on one bed.

[Tee Gee]

I'm a autumn 'muck' shifter myself and I like to get my manure in prior to the onset of winter as I think this does the most good.

It is quite common to get a relatively dry Spring so the moisture my muck has taken up is of greater benefit to my new plants.

The other thing is the decomposition creates a bit of heat so the ground is warmer (in relative terms)

Regarding this 'weedkiller' thing and the not knowing if your muck contains it or not I like to think pre winter application could help.

Look at it this way; In the ground there is not as much 'bulk' in one area (as you would get in the compost heap) so I would guess there is a greater chance of the contaminate being leeched out and washed away over the winter months.

Whereas if left in the compost heap over winter this leeching will only sink deeper into the pile. Plus if you put black plastic under your compost as I do, there is no where for the contaminate to leech out to so it remains in the compost.

Now all the above is just an opinion and as I have said above what ever method you use the choice can only be yours!!

[Robert_Brenchley]

Once the lignin in the muck has decomposed, the weedkiller goes into the groundwater. If it isn't taken up by plants, it will leach out, and end up God knows where. The problem is that next spring spring, you'll probably still have undecomposed lignin with the substance still bonded to it.

[posie]

Just a quick question, I've been offered some manure for plot (soil is awful at mo and the levels need raising), it's likely to be fresh, if I dig it in over next few weeks, then cover with black plastic (an absolute must), will it be ok to plant in next year?  Guy who offered it to me says it's uncontaminated to the best of his knowledge.

[ceres]

Aminopyralid doesn't 'leach out' or 'wash away' or go 'into the groundwater'.

The advice and information provided by the PSD and the RHS is based on their expert knowledge of aminopyralid as it stands at present.  Anything else you get from any other source is speculation.

I've posted this stuff so often, I'm going to stop now.  

[RobsVeg]

Thanks for the food for thought , just need to decide the best way out of all of this, one thing is for sure this contaminated manure could be a time bomb for a while yet.
Thanks
Rob.

[Buster54]

Just a quick question, I've been offered some manure for plot (soil is awful at mo and the levels need raising), it's likely to be fresh, if I dig it in over next few weeks, then cover with black plastic (an absolute must), will it be ok to plant in next year?  Guy who offered it to me says it's uncontaminated to the best of his knowledge.

I would park it up for 12 months if I were you and cover it up to rot down,putting  fresh manure on my only create a nice meadow for you as I found out many years ago,but then again what do I know

[posie]

Thanks Buster54, hopefully I can find some rotted down stuff from somewhere to see me through whilst this lot is cooking!

[jjt]

I would apply the stuff in spring, when you're getting ready to plant. If you put it on now it'll just sit there with the nutrients getting washed out over winter, not doing groundwater any good either (unless you're covering it of course). For the same reasons you should cover the heap if you can.