Author Topic: Catastrophic Potato Problem  (Read 60260 times)

Melbourne12

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2008, 10:18:38 »
...
In terms of breakdown I personally would have thought that if the weedkillers breakdown in soil then it is likely to do with biodegradation by soil organisms - I would have thought composted would give similar levels of biodegradation.

You're right, but the problem is that some of these compounds remain potent at incredibly low concentrations - parts per billion rather than parts per million!

cornykev

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2008, 20:09:09 »
I've just caught up with this thread and I'm sorry to here your news Ceres  :( and any others having probs with your spuds and things, it sure makes you think twice about using manure.  ??? :-\    ;D ;D ;D
MAY THE CORN BE WITH YOU.

ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2008, 21:13:28 »
Well, things are happening now!  Had a detailed response to questions I sent to the Pesticides Safety Directorate - thanks Suzanne for the suggestion.  Here's what they say:

"Thank you for your enquiry about problems you are experiencing on your
allotments.  As you have noted, similar problems are being reported
quite widely and we have had a number of enquiries along the same lines
in the last couple of weeks.

While there could be a number of reasons for the damage to your crops,
some of the information you have provided - the use of manure,
suggestions that herbicide is present, and the effects you have noted on
potatoes, tomatoes and beans - suggest (and I do emphasise that they
only suggest) that the manure contains traces of a herbicide called
aminopyralid.  This will have been applied to grass which was
subsequently fed to the horses in some form - perhaps as grazing or as
hay - and ended up in the manure as a consequence.  I would guess that
it is probably not in any bedding (unless this is derived from grass)
since straw is usually derived from cereal crops, and aminopyralid
products are not approved for use on cereals.

The following information is provided specifically on the assumption
that aminopyralid is probably present.  If you do have any information
that another herbicide is present instead of aminopyralid, we will
probably need to look at providing an alternative answer.

Without knowing how many horses were involved and how much of the
grass/hay was fed to them, it is difficult to estimate how much of the
aminopyralid might be present in the manure and therefore to provide
specific answers to your questions. 

It is probably reasonable to suggest that if the crops are actually
growing, albeit very poorly, then the amount of aminopyralid present is
probably quite low (greater quantities would probably kill the crops
completely) and eating any crops you do manage to harvest is probably
unlikely to expose you to any significant risk.  However, as indicated
above, it is difficult to estimate just how much is present and someone
wishing to be cautious may choose to destroy the crop instead; we would
probably not suggest composting the remains as the compost could then
contain residues of aminopyralid, although these will eventually
disappear.

Aminopyralid breaks down quite quickly in soil when exposed to soil
bacteria.  However, in the manure it is held within the remnants of any
plant material present; once this decomposes, the aminopyralid can
escape into the soil where it will be dealt with by the bacteria but
this leaves a window of opportunity between its release and its
breakdown where it is available for plants to take up.  This suggests
that once any plant material in the manure has completely broken down,
you will eventually be able to use the manure as normal.  Collecting any
unincorporated manure from the plots and ensuring it is turned regularly
may help with the breakdown and will also remove one source of
aminopyralid from the plots.  Where manure has been dug in, I'm not sure
too much can be done - turning the ground over regularly to try and
assist the breakdown process may help but will be difficult if there are
crops present.

Aminopyralid product labels do indicate that sensitive crops - potatoes,
tomatoes, peas, beans, carrots, lettuce (and related crops) - should not
be planted on any area treated with aminopyralid until the second
calendar year after application which may give an indication of how long
it will take until all traces are gone.  Its incorporation in manure
will, unfortunately, add a degree of unpredictability to this.

The product labels and associated technical literature do carry warnings
and advice on the management of manure containing aminopyralid and
avoiding risks to sensitive crops.  However, it is clear that in some
cases, and this will be one, the person growing and treating the grass
is not the person feeding the animals and disposing of the manure.
Given that effective manure management depends on the effective
communication of information about the grass having been treated and
consequently having restrictions on its use, and given that the manure
supplier only rents out the boxes, I would guess that he was not told
there was something in the feed which might cause problems with the
manure.  And tracing back to the grass supplier is likely to be all but
impossible if the stables are used by many different owners.

It is difficult to advise you about sowing green manure as the results
will depend on what is sown; legumes and clover may well be affected if
aminopyralid is still present, although clover is much less sensitive to
the herbicide than legumes are.

Most of the aminopyralid products currently available are marketed by
Dow AgroSciences, so because of the level of uncertainty I have
indicated, you should contact them for more detailed information and
advice; they have set up a special email address for this purpose at
ukhotline@dow.com.

As far as any future use of manure is concerned, all I can suggest is
that if you do obtain manure for use on the allotments, you try and
check whether the animals have been fed or could have been fed with
something treated with herbicide, and proceed accordingly.  We are
looking to see if there are ways to close potential gaps in the chain of
communication between grass grower and allotment user but may have to
accept that we will not be able to completely prevent this sort of
problem recurring in the future."


Need to go and do more googling now.

Also had an email from the Plant Health Inspectorate at DEFRA to call them regarding a possible site visit.

Trevor_D

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2008, 21:28:39 »
Well done ! We're getting somewhere! (Well, you are!!)

Interesting that the problems "have been reported quite widely" and they've had "a number of inquiries along the same lines".

I think we ought to be told....

ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2008, 21:34:59 »
It's definitely WE!  Everyone on this thread has helped with bits of the jigsaw and offered support.

There does seem to be more than an odd isolated problem here and it seems to me significant that Dow has set up a helpline.  It'll be interesting to see what the Regulatory Update says.


ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2008, 22:52:39 »
"Speaking specifically about Forefront – an aminopyralid – Colin Bowers, marketing specialist for Dow, said................"Make sure you also take these factors into account if you are selling on manure. It is important to remember that it is your responsibility to make sure the manure is used appropriately. It can be used by farmers who wish to use it for grass, cereals or maize, but not sold to farmers or general public for use on sensitive crops or in gardens.""

http://www.farmersguardian.com/story.asp?sectioncode=33&storycode=17140&featurecode=282

martinstanley

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2008, 12:27:13 »
I have this problem - my entire potato and broad bean crop looks just like the photographs of an earlier post. 

It is probably caused by herbicide residues in cow manure. 

See this item of the Pesticide Protection Agency web site http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=2465

You need to contact your supplier and see if meadows have been sprayed with the products mentioned.  Advice seems to be that there is little risk to health but who is going to risk it?  It has been suggested to me by Garden Organic and others to try a green manure and then do a test sowing next spring.

sawfish

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2008, 18:30:57 »
there was an interesting bit in 'the potting shed' on radio 4 about this problem. You can still get it on listen again here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/programmes/beechgrovepottingshed/

Need a Leek

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2008, 20:14:35 »
Nice one Sawfish a very helpful listen, I and fellow holders on our site are still in two minds whether the affected crops can be used. Being on the south coast just makes you realise that this is pretty much a nationwide problem.

Cheers
Tony
Villa villan and a two lottie nut...

glallotments

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2008, 10:48:02 »
I joined this forum after notiicing people from here had visited my website. For the same reason yesterday I visited about three other forums and we have all been going through the same process. Yesterday over 400 visits were made to our website, where I have been collating information from wherever I have managed to get it from including.

So far government offices have been the least helpful and it had taken long enough to get the media interested. We managed to get an article in our regional paper as I believe have some other areas (you may be one of them Ceres. This seems to have got the ball rolling. I emailed all thebroadcasting companies but the best we did was a amorning interview on local radio - very early when most people are hurrying to work.

Our concern is that there doesn't appear to be anyone in governent taking responsibility - I have been given the runaround too. I have also been told that supply to allotments is a grey area and govenment don't seem to have any protocols in place to deal with this type of thing. Also no-one seems to want to track down the misusers at least to educate them. One of our web visitors tracked back to the farm supplying the manure and sure enough the label confirmed aminopyralid but obviously the farmer hadn't read the label before use. I'd be nterested to see if any other countries have been affected in te same way as us or whether they have more effective regulations than we do.

If anyone wants details of their experiences entering on our web page (Gov offices are visiting as is the media) then email me from the web site. I am starting a page just for this purpose as the list is growing. http://www.glallotments.btik.com/p_Contaminated_Manure.ikml You never know there may be other things on the site to take your mind off losing your potatoes too!

ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2008, 11:19:48 »
Good work GL!  Hopefully exposure in a national newspaper might help get a few more people interested.

As I understand it, contravening the pesticides regulations is a criminal offence so if someone isn't listening, they d*mn well should be.  If the regulations can't be enforced because of the way manure is sold/given to amateur growers, then there's no point in having regulations, it's just a free-for-all.

I've had a very quick scan and aminopyralid appears to be licensed in the UK, US (some states only?), Canada, Australia - there may be others.  Haven't had time yet to look for reporting of problems but will have a dig around tonight.

glallotments

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2008, 20:57:22 »
Just a thought - any chance that you could post everything on this on one thread. It's for selfish reasons really as I amtrying to keep watch on four forums and my website and blog messages.

Interestingly our potatoes are growing out of the problem at the moment anyway. DOW confirmed that this does sometimes happen and it can even cause an increase in yield - if we decide we dare eat them

telboy

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2008, 23:27:49 »
Hi all,
Sorry to come to the thread a little late but on reading all your posts, I feel that I am well informed now.
I have also been 'afflicted' and grow veg. in north Oxon.. I have been using farm yard manure which was fairly well composted (received in Nov.2007) & then stored undercover.
It has affected broad/runner beans worst of all as I used more of this with these plants than horse manure (which I obtain & use neat, plants look fine here). I have not grown main pots. this year due to blight in the last three years. A row of earlies had general own compost.
It appears that Aminopyralid (or such) is a common factor with my particular probs. & with yours also.
Why this year so much?
Many thanks to you all for producing such a fine & informative thread. There was also an article in last Sundays Observer.
Eskimo Nel was a great Inuit.

ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2008, 23:48:26 »
Hi telboy, sorry that you're affected too.  It's very widespread.  I think the reason that it has hit so badly this year is that it's fairly new to the market.  It was only introduced in 2006 so probably not much sprayed material made it into manure supplies in 2007.  Farmers would have been in the process of switching over from their previous herbicide to this new 'better' one. Trevor_D's site is the only one I've heard of so far that was hit in 2007, but the floodgates have now well and truly opened.

I was interviewed and photographed for the Observer article!  There's another thread here:

http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/smf/index.php/topic,43062

It has suggestions on who you can write to, to protest about the loss of your crops and the poisoning of your plot.

froglets

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2008, 09:09:54 »
Couple of plots on our site also affected - South Cheshire.  All used farm manure from the same local farm, those of us who use stable manure from the stables a little further down the same lane are ok, although we're keeping an eye out and putting the word about in case that farmer starts using contaminated straw for bedding.

Thanks for all the info folks.
is it in the sale?
(South Cheshire)

ceres

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2008, 09:14:16 »
Sorry to hear your site has it too, froglets.  Have you spoken to the farmer and the stables?

froglets

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2008, 09:41:49 »
Hi Ceres,  I work away a lot so only getting feedback second hand, I'll pick it up with the site rep week after next when the current madness slows down, although he's really good and will probably have picked it up with the affected guys by the time I next see him.  The problem was picked up by our site via a couple of other forums, and theres a good network between all the sites locally, so I'd expect it to be in hand.

Regards
is it in the sale?
(South Cheshire)

telboy

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2008, 22:00:46 »
It seems that publicity is increasing!
There was a report on the subject in the BBC Midlands local news last night.
Well done ceres & all others for your brilliant efforts to bring this so much to the for!!!!
Eskimo Nel was a great Inuit.

telboy

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Re: Catastrophic Potato Problem
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2008, 22:04:52 »
Sorry all----

'to the fore'
Eskimo Nel was a great Inuit.

 

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