Author Topic: Tomato mutation?  (Read 2583 times)

Gadfium

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Tomato mutation?
« on: May 05, 2006, 14:06:26 »
I've sown 5 varieties: Latah, Gardeners' Delight, Costoluto Fiorentino, Moneymaker and Urbikany. It is possible that there was a labelling mishap somewhere, but I have ended up with one plant that does not resemble ANY of the others... and I'm sure I didn't prick out a sole survivor of any of the varieties.

It's down as a Latah (bush), but the leaves are completely different to all of the other tomatoes... be they Latah or any of the other varieties.

Anyone have any idea what the heck this is?

Pictures of: 'majority' Latahs followed by 'Odd-man-out' Latah tomato.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 16:20:50 by Gadfium »

Curryandchips

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2006, 14:27:55 »
Might this one plant have 'reverted' back, I have heard of this happening occasionally ... ?
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cleo

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2006, 18:10:21 »
Umm-I`ve never grown Latah or Urbilkanny but some varieties do sometimes get confused between potato leaf and `normal`that`s one of these things when growing unusual varieties-let them grow-but strangle `Moneymaker` now-it`s the kindest thing to do ;)

Gadfium

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 12:44:06 »
Thanks for your replies. I will plant the odd-ball up in a growbag and see what happens...

Might e-mail the seed suppliers and see if they also have experience of this type of reversion/potato-leaf - and the likely outcome.

The Moneymakers are sticky-outs  ;) amid the other tomatoes! I agree! But as an unexpected and kind gift... they'll nestle cosily amongst the rest... what do they taste like? Or have you already given me a clue? :D

Robert_Brenchley

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 19:32:28 »
They taste like supermarket toms, even if you grow them organically out of doors. Very uninspired, but they're tolerable in curry along with overpowering quantities of chili.

amphibian

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 21:38:01 »
I am growing latah, and I too have a few plants that are potato leaved. I even have two in one pot that are different, and as they were repotted together from the same cell, I know that they are the same variety.

I got my seeds from realseeds/vivaverde, you too?

saddad

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 17:45:40 »
I save my own seed from Heriage seed library varieties and sometimes get a few rogues, just chuck them unless it would leave you short... I wouldnot expect rogues in bought seed.... rather defeats the point of a national list!
 ;D

Gadfium

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 18:58:41 »
Yup, got the seeds from the same place as you...  the taste of the produce from last year's VidaVerde's offerings, saw me heading back for the majority of this season's purchases.

Seeing that we've both got the normal leaf/potato leaf expression on the same variety, I wonder if it's inherent to Latah?

amphibian

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 23:31:46 »
Yup, got the seeds from the same place as you...  the taste of the produce from last year's VidaVerde's offerings, saw me heading back for the majority of this season's purchases.

Seeing that we've both got the normal leaf/potato leaf expression on the same variety, I wonder if it's inherent to Latah?

Or a production error, they are a very scrupulous firm so we could try emailing them.

Gadfium

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 13:16:16 »
Amphibian...

I e-mailed VidaVerde, and received the following comprehensive reply:-


***************

'Thanks for your email. Its a very good question. Our strain of Latah comes from 10 seeds I got through a Seed Savers Exchange seed swap about 5 years ago.  It did superbly in our trials and so we multiplied it up for the catalogue.

In that first year, I did get 1 plant that was different. All the others were identical.

Since then we haven't had a single off-type. I assumed that the 'oddball' one was either a rare crosing or much more likely a 'lost' seed of another variety that got put into the seed packet by mistake (this often happens in seed- swaps).

So the question is, where did your potato leafed latah come from? Especially as some-one else has the same thing.

We grew 1 potato leaved variety last year - Galina, which is a yellow cherry.

There are a few possibilities:

1) Physical mix up of seeds. I think this probably hasn't happened, but it is one obvious explanation. We obviously try really hard to be sure jars, sieves etc are clean before doing the next variety. Very unlikely though.

2) Crossing. Your Latah might come from a flower that crossed with the Galina. Both were growing fairly near to each other. Tomatoes do cross, to a small (and debatable) extent. From what I know of Latah and Galina, I would be surprised if they had crossed, the Latah flowers aren't the right type. But it is definitely possible.

3) 'Reversion'  i.e. the entire Latah variety being genetically impure/unstable and settling out to show different types. I think unlikely as we have grown many with no variation over several generations. However this cannot be dismissed as it is a modern variety, with a wide background, and it is perfectly possible that it has a very low-frequency tendency to mutate.

4) Rogues - well that's just a term for ones that don't look like what you want, rather than a cause. Could be any of the above.


My preferred explanation is (2) that they crossed. Your question of 'to bin or not to bin' is a very good one.

If you want Latah, just keep the ones that are all the same. That's how you maintain a variety of course, by rogueing.  A little genetic diversity (even by accident)is good, it allows for adapation, but you have to rogue (throw away the ones you dont like) as well.

But if it were me, I would not bin the others. Latah and Galina are some of the very best tomatoes I have ever grown (otherwise they wouldn't be in our catalogue :-). A cross between them could be **awesome**. In fact, if you do keep them, can you send us a few seeds, and let me know what they are like?

I think that creating new varieties is just as important as keeping the old ones alive. And its as easy as spotting something you like and keeping it, provided you select the plants carefully each year.

In this case, even if you have a completely unstable cross, as tomatoes are (mostly!) self-pollinating, you just need to grow it every year and keep the seed from the one plant type that appeals to you. After 8 years you will have a variety that is 99% stable. (the genetics of self-fertilization just work out like that). Name it and give the seed away to your friends!

Ben

PS Please copy this to your email group so the other person gets a reply too!

PPS: What happened to the one 'oddball' plant that I had right at the start? Well, I kept it, to see what it was like, and it was good too. Even better, it was stable. In fact, we multiplied it up and  it will be ready for release next year. So its always worth evaluating the odd ones. Most will be rubbish, but over your lifetime a good
gardener can spot quite a few 'happy accidents' and add them to our collective larder!'


****************


....so I'll carry on and grow the odd-ball potato-leaf Latah, and see what happens, if it survives and fruits, I'll save seed and send some back to VidaVerde.

Are you on for a little comparison experiment? See if we end up with the same size/shape/colour of tomatoes from these potato leafers?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 13:22:01 by Gadfium »

amphibian

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 14:28:21 »
Thank you Gadfium, yeah let's run them and see what happens, maybe our oddball seeds originate from the very same fruit!

Gadfium

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2006, 19:28:27 »
Amphibian,

I did keep the oddball potato-leafed 'Latah' going, and it has turned out some lovely tasting red cherry tomatoes, in small bunches of 7-9/truss. It grew like a vine, so I treated it as such.

This might indicate a cross between the Galina (yellow vine cherry) and the Latah (red bush)... Option (2) in the VidaVerde/Real Seeds e-mail.

Will post a pic of them when I find the camera.

Have your oddball Latahs also produced the red cherry tomatoes, or something different?

Will be having a bash at saving the seed - following VidaVerde's instructions.

 :)

amphibian

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2006, 21:55:04 »
Amphibian,

I did keep the oddball potato-leafed 'Latah' going, and it has turned out some lovely tasting red cherry tomatoes, in small bunches of 7-9/truss. It grew like a vine, so I treated it as such.

This might indicate a cross between the Galina (yellow vine cherry) and the Latah (red bush)... Option (2) in the VidaVerde/Real Seeds e-mail.

Will post a pic of them when I find the camera.

Have your oddball Latahs also produced the red cherry tomatoes, or something different?

Will be having a bash at saving the seed - following VidaVerde's instructions.

 :)

Unfortunately my plant didn't make it, but it was definately a vine before it died, it got hit with the blight badly and was disposed of for the sake of my other plants.

It had round fruit when it bit the dust, small and slightly iregular shaped.

Gadfium

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Re: Tomato mutation?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2006, 11:00:08 »
Did they look anything like this?




 

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