Author Topic: im confused now (Read 5806 times)

loulou · « **on:** March 29, 2006, 15:48:57 »

i was reading a web page and it said this

Onions
Easy to grow with a long storage life, onions are one of the best vegetables for the home gardener. They have the advantage of being a sensible proposition in both the large and small garden, and can be grown in the same position for several years.With a little planning, they can be available for nearly all year round eating.

and in my bible it says to rotate them every year could any one please let me know which i should believe web or book

MikeB · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2006, 16:14:17 »

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer chance.

In the Victorian gardening books they used to promote a fixed onion bed and recommend that it is heavy manured every year, but now days it is recommended that you rotate them due to the risk of, I believe of white rot. So you could go years without problems and then suddenly wipe out, no onions. Jennym is more knowledgable on diseases, see what she has to say.

theothermarg · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2006, 16:21:07 »

yes they can be. the allotment next to mine always grows his in the same place and there always ok but I feel it's safer to rotate because onions
can suffer from their own diseases and it's better to be safe then sorry

tim · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2006, 16:32:02 »

With the disastrously rapid spread of white rot - DO, DO rotate!!

Which was the site?

allanwoolley · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2006, 19:21:52 »

Robinsons Exhibition Seeds of Preston have been growing their onions in the same bed for 140 years, though they do prepare their beds with care, including using Jeyes fluid from time to time. Great seeds they are too!

tim · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2006, 19:35:49 »

Alright - on your own head be it!

This is just a quickie quote -" Rotation alone will not control white rot because sclerotia can survive more than 20 years in soil, but it does help prevent buildup of the pathogen. "

Onion growers are struggling to survive & ANY prophylactic measure would seem sensible??

grawrc · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2006, 20:22:54 »

Is there anything else that can be done to prevent white rot? Apart from rotation and good hygiene with tools etc.

Rosyred · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2006, 20:39:40 »

What do they do with the jeyes fluid?

grawrc · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2006, 20:55:57 »

Presumably water the ground with it. It kills off just about anything in sight, but I thought it was prohibited now.

Rosyred · « **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2006, 20:59:25 »

I think I heard they changed something in it from years ago.

jennym · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2006, 00:35:34 »

Jeyes fluid shouldn’t be used as a soil sterilant at all. It isn't legal to do so.
Cat owners should note that it is particularly harmful to cats.

There is an interesting report produced by Friends of the Earth & Pesticide Action Network, which goes some way towards explaining the situation and does make comment on why so many amateur gardeners persist in believing that it is ok to use products like this. A relevant extract is as follows, I show a link to the full report at the bottom for anyone that's interested.
…Despite the withdrawal of 81 amateur products, there is unlikely to be a major impact on the home and garden market because the manufacturers are using various methods to minimise their losses. For example, the approval for tar acids as a pesticide is being withdrawn but the two products containing tar acids, Jeyes Fluid and Armillatox, will continue to be marketed because the manufacturers can change the claims on the packaging. So while Armillatox was previously marketed to combat honey fungus and a number of other pests, from 25 July it will be marketed as a "soap-based cleaner", requiring no license for sale. Jeyes Fluid will no longer be marketed to sterilise soil and kill moss and lichens, but will
continue to be marketed for cleaning greenhouses, paths, patios and for disinfecting tools, pots, stables, kennels and hutches. Both of these products have strong brand recognition and so their sales may not be significantly affected. Amateur users are often less informed about regulatory changes and so may continue to use products as before....
http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/reports/breaking_the_pesticide_chain.pdf

jennym · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2006, 00:59:42 »

With regard to control of white rot, I believe there is some DEFRA funded research going on to see if it can be controlled by biological and cultural means.
Experiments have been done with composted onion debris - this seems to help control the white rot when dug into the soil - it seems that the micro-organisms responsible for breaking down the onion debris maybe form some kind of innoculum, that attacks the white rot.
Experiments have also been done with some types of fungus called Trichoderma viride, that attack white rot, and were seen to be about 75% effective in controlling the white rot at temperatures between 5 and 25 degrees C. This isn't available to buy yet I don't think.
The best results have been seen with combining the two methods.

Here is the DEFRA link:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/science/project_data/DocumentLibrary/HH3204SFV/HH3204SFV_3225_FRP.doc
The work was done at Warwick University but unfortunately I can't find a link to post.

loulou · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2006, 16:01:19 »

Quote from: tim on March 29, 2006, 16:32:02

With the disastrously rapid spread of white rot - DO, DO rotate!!

Which was the site?

http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_august_1_onion.asp i started to read this page and thats when i saw it
thank you to all i do rotate my onions and i think ill keep on doing so i just hate it when they print thing like this it gets me in a right muddle thanks to all

grawrc · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2006, 20:20:43 »

Jen I do know that Jeyes fluid is on the forbidden list I was simply suggesting that if company "x" uses it routinely to prevent white rot then the likelihood is that they water it on to the soil. I know that they should not be doing so, but have you any other explanation for the earlier post?
"Robinsons Exhibition Seeds of Preston have been growing their onions in the same bed for 140 years, though they do prepare their beds with care, including using Jeyes fluid from time to time. Great seeds they are too!"

jennym · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2006, 21:01:08 »

No, grawc, I guess that if any company was using it, that's what they would be doing.
They'd be foolish to do so though, because as a commercial organisation they would risk being fined and lose their good name.

grawrc · « **Reply #15 on:** March 30, 2006, 21:06:00 »

Couldn't agree more and maybe that's something we amateur growers ought to be doing: exposing growers and supermarkets and other companies that carelessly flaunt the regulations. Or is that like the Sittenpolizei (=SS) in Hitler's Germany?? Help! :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Svengali · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2006, 17:50:13 »

I have to admit that I take MOST of the new chemical regulations with a great pile of slug-exterminating salt!
I am 65 yrs old, and have been around garden culture all my life, and short of the suicidally-inclined, who have consumed the stuff, I cannot remember ANY instances of the tried & tested horticultural chemicals hurting anyone. I have seen enough of EEC regulations to know that the majority of them are a load of ****, designed in most cases to give a competitive edge to the French & Germans, and until they start to live in the real world, I will ignore any of their regulations that do not make sense to me, personally.
Since the new regulations came in, it is impossible to find a fly spray that actually works - unless you manage to drown the b*****s in it! Oh Vapona, where are you!? (& no, the new one lasts about three days only).
Creosote equivalent lasts for just a season, but when did you ever hear of a case of creosote poisoning?
I will continue to use Jeyes for as long as I can find it - and several of the other banned products. As I said, I'm 65, & my stock should last me out!

flowerlady · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2006, 19:06:31 »

It's horses for courses I'm afraid.

However it has to be said that by using such stringent agents it does mean that one is not JUST sterilising the soil ...

One is exterminating quite a sizeable amount of wildlife, and consequently tampering with natures food chain.

It is not a practice I subscribe to.

jennym · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2006, 20:00:16 »

Quote from: Svengali on March 31, 2006, 17:50:13

.. I cannot remember ANY instances of the tried & tested horticultural chemicals hurting anyone....

Must be the effect of all those chemicals on your memory?

DDT ?
DIQUAT ?
NICOTINE ?

Reports on pesticide poisoning make grim reading:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7946507&dopt=Citation
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/uploadedfiles/WIIS_2002.pdf

Seriously, if even the commercial growers are using more non-chemical controls, it makes sense to consider not using them, even if it's for financial reasons. I speak here as someone who has used pesticides, and who is trained and licensed to use pesticides.

grawrc · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2006, 21:06:51 »

It's very easy to say it's all down to the EU as if we weren't part of it. We are, and with all its inadequacies, it is trying to address issues which could literally poison life for future generations of Europeans. Yes it's slow, lumbering and cumbersome. All the better to be cautious - less chance of really messing up.

The fact is that these chemicals destroy living things and pollute what is grown in the soil. Creosote kills plants. my water-based creosote substitute is guaranteed for 5 years and kills nothing as far as I am aware.

Sorry but if you use banned chemicals you are responsible for killing plants, lives and the future of planet earth. I'm 56 by the way. Going on 57.

Sorry Dan this should probably be in the Shed rather than edible plants.

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Author Topic: im confused now (Read 5806 times)